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Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

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Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#401

Post by glesica »

nacs wrote: post #363
glesica wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you joking? Seriously, I recently confused a sarcastic comment for a serious one on HN, so I'm asking honestly. Because if you're serious, then I just don't know where to start. I'll keep it short. Using a term to facilitate a discussion of that term is completely and entirely different from using it in other ways. I assumed the intellectual maturity of this audience was higher than it would be on, say, Reddit. P…

No I'm not joking. There are many more offended by the word you used than the word 'bro'. The discussion is not about race nor that word so it's not relevant. Next time you argue over such an intellectually deep matter such as whether the word 'bro' may be offensive or not, you may wish to be a bit more cautious about the use of such words.

I wasn't arguing about whether "bro" was offensive. I was arguing over whether it is legitimate for a man to be offended by sexism, please read the GP before responding next time.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#402

Post by TeMPOraL »

glesica wrote: post #390
overgard wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the problem with your argument: since there's nothing actually hostile towards women on that page, what you're basically saying is that any expression of male culture at all is "hostile". It's like saying "stop being men! it's chasing all the women away!".

His whole point was that what is on that page IS hostile to many women in the community or thinking about joining it. You don't get to decide what offends or hurts other people. If the authors had wanted this to be a cute in-joke for the bros, then why did they publish it to the entire world? Why not just send it around to their male friends, but use a more appropriate (and they KNEW the name wasn't appropriate becau…

How about just: don't use it if you don't like it.

> If the authors had wanted this to be a cute in-joke for the bros, then why did they publish it to the entire world?

Are you suggesting that people should refrain from publishing things that are contrary to mainstream fashions? (I can't call all this let's-see-gender-issues-in-everything crap anything else than a stupid fashion that hopefully goes away soon)

Also, the joke is about the man pages. Not woman pages (though those exist in Emacs). I suggest we burn Unix and derivatives (and Emacs, this sexist bastard) on the stake of gender issues.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#403

Post by Steuard »

overgard wrote: post #367
Steuard wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "bro" has been closely associated in the tech world lately with things like "brogrammer" culture. I don't know whether that was the intended reference in this case (though it seems pretty likely to me that something of the sort was on the authors' minds when they chose the name: why else would the term feel relevant?). But the real issue isn't "What did they intend?" in any case: it's "What impact might this…

Here's the problem with your argument: since there's nothing actually hostile towards women on that page, what you're basically saying is that any expression of male culture at all is "hostile". It's like saying "stop being men! it's chasing all the women away!".

Brogrammer culture is hostile to women (at least in the sense that most women would feel less comfortable in a workplace dominated by that culture). It doesn't sound like you're arguing against that point.

So to the extent that the name of the "bro" command invokes that culture (and that's the point of the joke, right?), it reinforces the association between brogrammer attitudes and tech in general. Embedding that association into the tools we all use seems like a really bad idea. And yes, it could make programming feel one step more hostile for quite a lot of women (and men, for that matter).

Fundamentally, I don't think that either intensely male culture or intensely female culture (or for that matter intensely Democratic culture or intensely Republican culture or intensely Episcopalian culture or...) have any place in a professional environment (unless you're working at a Democratic campaign office or an Episcopalian summer camp or...).

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#404

Post by mscarborough »

overgard wrote: post #367
Steuard wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "bro" has been closely associated in the tech world lately with things like "brogrammer" culture. I don't know whether that was the intended reference in this case (though it seems pretty likely to me that something of the sort was on the authors' minds when they chose the name: why else would the term feel relevant?). But the real issue isn't "What did they intend?" in any case: it's "What impact might this…

Here's the problem with your argument: since there's nothing actually hostile towards women on that page, what you're basically saying is that any expression of male culture at all is "hostile". It's like saying "stop being men! it's chasing all the women away!".

So, we have enough issues with improving women's place in STE. It's not like we need to invent new ways to keep technology male.

I've helped different women with less experience in commandline stuff and linux/unix in general. In the workplace, and with tutoring middle/high school kids of both genders.

If I ever had to say "go check the manpage, and the bropage" I would feel like a huge asshole.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#405

Post by vacri »

theboss wrote: post #332
Pxtl wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point. It's such a shame that gender politics have created so many thorny issues in our industry, but you can't bury your head in the sand and pretend they're not there. If we had good female representation in the industry and we didn't have a small cluster of vocal misogynists, we'd be able to make cute jokes that play on gender. But sadly, we don't live in that world. Yes, we need to hold ourselves to a higher stan…

Who are these vocal misogynists in this industry? I've never heard of them or seen them...

Read a few comments in this thread for some examples.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#406

Post by DanBC »

pstack wrote: post #69
mtrimpe wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're shitting us right? Manpages referred to man uals , not men . But given that I'm obviously swimming against the tide here at HN I'll just cave ..... Word, brah! Like, totally right on! We should be making like 'sispages' next with like only explanations and shit. Get it? For like the sissy-grammers! Awesome dude. You da bomb!

I can't tell if people here are being intentionally thick or not. "Is bro supposed to be sexist or is it meant to be ironic?" "Man referred to manual, not men!" I can't even imagine many of you people watching a stand-up comic. Your heads must verge on exploding. The diagram for the pun/humor here would be about as simple as a diagram could be.

I have this really funny cat picture. We'll vectorise it and use it for the logo. Because, lol, funny, right?

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#408

Post by thro2 »

raganwald wrote: post #378
smokeyj wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't give a damn what women think of my calling people out on misogyny That's what you're doing. You're like MLK for women's rights.

Dude(?), I'm not MLK, and I'm not into women's rights. I'm a selfish bastard who wants to double or treble the number of productive brains in my environment. Exclusionary behaviour stands between me and my dream, and I will crush it by any means necessary. If you must compare me, think of Malcolm X. Do not make the mistake of thinking I'm nice to women, men, other people of colour, or anybody else.

The behavior here is only exclusionary if people feel excluded by it, so the legitimacy of your concerns is based in how women (in this case) feel. If you can't find a person who thinks he/she is being discriminated against here, you're obviously tilting at windmills.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#409

Post by Steuard »

overgard wrote: post #388
Steuard wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, women have a sense of humor, and in general they're really good at taking a joke from time to time. But if you keep your eyes open, you'll eventually notice that women (especially in tech) wind up having to "take a joke" all the friggin' time. And that gets really old. I mean, seriously, look at this very example. Imagine that the "bro" command became a standard tool. Now picture a woman being stuck typing "bro"…

Except: the joke isn't even directed at women. Women aren't being asked to "take the joke" here because it has nothing to do with women. The only tie to women here is from self proclaimed social justice warriors decrying the fact that someone might call something "bro".

Ok, you've got me confused now. You just said, 'Women aren't being asked to "take the joke" here'. But in your previous comment that I was replying to, you said, 'My argument is that women have a sense of humor and we don't have to infantilize them by acting like they can't take a joke.' Which is it?

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#410

Post by scott_s »

Steuard wrote: post #324
overgard wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, lets throw away our sense of humor and wordplay because there are theoretically people that might be offended (maybe, kindof. You know. In theory.). (N.B. the people that seem to be offended so far are offended on other peoples behalf..) Isn't it way more offensive to assume that women are such dainty delicate creatures that like, they won't get the joke?

It's not about offending people. It's never about offending people. Plenty of people could have delightfully off-color senses of humor, love playing Cards Against Humanity, and still find this name highly problematic. It's actually about the signals that we send by using language closely associated with groups or attitudes that have long histories of excluding women or others from our culture and community. And just…

I bookmark a very small number of comment pages for HN members, and yours is one of them. I just wanted to let you know that.
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