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Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

theguardian.com

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Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#401

Post by tialaramex »

gchokov wrote: post #391

The world is slowly moving away from the US. It's interesting because this administration main goal was to MAGA.. but it happened quite the opposite thing. It turns out, the world doesn't need much of the US products and services.

The key word is "again". This was a nostalgia play, America was a big deal fifty years ago, therefore just wind back to fifty years ago and we're "Great Again".

This play seems insane because Time's Arrow points only one way, but it succeeded (in the sense that people supported it) because it's predicated on Facts Aren't True. It doesn't matter that Time's Arrow points future-ward, that's just a Fact not a Truth so we can just disagree.

Facts Aren't True can actually work for stuff where all you're doing is messing with people. Your Courts are just people and they can reject observable reality and substitute your own Truth with the Kavanaugh Stop, a week in jail becomes "brief" and your skin colour becomes "reasonable suspicion" for example. Your executives can pay themselves huge bonuses for imaginary success while concretely the company fails and eventually collapses. Stock markets can soar as the real economy they're "reflecting" buckles and fails.

"Facts Aren't True" is a stupid choice because unlike the people, Mother Nature doesn't give a shit about your Truth. So America won't actually become Great Again, but it is able to delude itself about this at a cost to its standing in the world and to its own future.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#402

Post by zgniatacz »

ThePowerOfFuet wrote: post #394
nl wrote: post #339

The Saab GlobalEye is based on the Bombardier Global 6500 airframe. Bombardier Aviation is a Canadian company. For those who aren't aware, the Boeing E7 is yet-another-delayed-Boeing project. The UK has bought it but it has been continually delayed: https://breakingdefense.com/2026/03/uk-defense-official-boei... Australia flies it (an earlier version) but today announced they are also buying three Bombardier Global 6…

>Bombardier Aviation is a Canadian company. Was. They are now part of Airbus, much like Bombardier Transport is now part of Alstom.

that is not true. Business jets are not part of divestiture to Airbus. Cseries was sold to Airbus.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#403

Post by otherme123 »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #384
adjejmxbdjdn wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the past countries would buy American equipment even if it wasn’t the best fit because that would make you essentially an American ally. Being part of the U.S. ecosystem was valuable. Unfortunately, over the last 1.5 years, the political value proposition has turned by 180 degrees. - Being a U.S. ally no longer guarantees that you will be protected by the U.S. as Ukraine is seeing. But the U.S. has been tearing ag…

>Being a U.S. ally no longer guarantees that you will be protected by the U.S. as Ukraine is seeing. The US never promised to protect Ukraine. It's often claimed that the Budapest Memorandum was a promise from the US to protect Ukraine, but this is misinformation. Read the memorandum for yourself if you don't believe me, it's not very long: https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/P...

Point 1: "The Russian Federation., the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine"

Point 4 of the Memorandum: "The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used."

US actions in the UN: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c7435pnle0go "The US has twice sided with Russia in votes at the United Nations to mark the third anniversary of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, highlighting the Trump administration's change of stance on the war.

First, the US opposed a European-drafted resolution condemning Moscow's actions and supporting Ukraine's territorial integrity - voting the same way as Russia and countries including North Korea and Belarus at the UN General Assembly (UNGA) in New York.

Then the US drafted and voted for a resolution at the UN Security Council which called for an end to the conflict, but contained no criticism of Russia."

The US has almost nothing to do (vote in the UN against Russia aggression), and yet did less than that. They can hide behind technicalities, but the truth is that Trump is acting like a Putin asset. For decades there has been a political fight in eastern Europe where the US projected power supporting governments that sympathized with western countries (enter NATO, enter UE, enter western markets, welcome western industries). US was winning the fight without shooting a bullet until Trump.

US has no official treaty with Israel (except the 10 year rolling aid), yet we would be shocked if suddenly an US government turn to support Israel neighbors and vote against them in the UN.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#404

Post by [deleted] »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #386
marcus_holmes wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do we need to actually go to war with Russia? Yes. That's what everyone signed up to [0] when Ukraine gave up its Soviet-era nukes. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

If you read the memorandum text, at most the US promised to go to the UN security council if Ukraine's territorial integrity was threatened. https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/P... There is a lot of misinformation floating around the internet about this memorandum. Furthermore, even Wikipedia states: "The Budapest Memorandum is not a treaty, and it does not confer any new legal obligations for…

[deleted]

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#405

Post by MagicMoonlight »

tialaramex wrote: post #401
gchokov wrote: post #391

The world is slowly moving away from the US. It's interesting because this administration main goal was to MAGA.. but it happened quite the opposite thing. It turns out, the world doesn't need much of the US products and services.

The key word is "again". This was a nostalgia play, America was a big deal fifty years ago, therefore just wind back to fifty years ago and we're "Great Again". This play seems insane because Time's Arrow points only one way, but it succeeded (in the sense that people supported it) because it's predicated on Facts Aren't True. It doesn't matter that Time's Arrow points future-ward, that's just a Fact not a Truth so w…

What are you talking about? The US is something like 70% of global company value. The whole world revolves around it.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#406

Post by oneshtein »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #384
adjejmxbdjdn wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the past countries would buy American equipment even if it wasn’t the best fit because that would make you essentially an American ally. Being part of the U.S. ecosystem was valuable. Unfortunately, over the last 1.5 years, the political value proposition has turned by 180 degrees. - Being a U.S. ally no longer guarantees that you will be protected by the U.S. as Ukraine is seeing. But the U.S. has been tearing ag…

>Being a U.S. ally no longer guarantees that you will be protected by the U.S. as Ukraine is seeing. The US never promised to protect Ukraine. It's often claimed that the Budapest Memorandum was a promise from the US to protect Ukraine, but this is misinformation. Read the memorandum for yourself if you don't believe me, it's not very long: https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/P...

garanties de sécurité

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#407

Post by 05hundred »

GJim wrote: post #400
bawolff wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being a U.S. ally is no guarantee of protection even if you literally host American bases like the gulf countries are seeing. In fact, it’s only made them a target and the U.S. prioritized protecting Israel entirely over protecting any of the Gulf states. I think that is a little oversimplified. America did spend resources on defense of gulf states. They might feel it wasn't enough but it definitely wasn't nothing.…

> America did spend resources on defense of gulf states. No offence mate, but did you miss the bit about the USA starting the war?

Considering the last sentence in the comment you are replying to, i doubt they missed it...

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#408

Post by oneshtein »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #386
marcus_holmes wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do we need to actually go to war with Russia? Yes. That's what everyone signed up to [0] when Ukraine gave up its Soviet-era nukes. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

If you read the memorandum text, at most the US promised to go to the UN security council if Ukraine's territorial integrity was threatened. https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/P... There is a lot of misinformation floating around the internet about this memorandum. Furthermore, even Wikipedia states: "The Budapest Memorandum is not a treaty, and it does not confer any new legal obligations for…

Your words are not proven in court.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#409

Post by 1718627440 »

gunsle wrote: post #329
Waterluvian wrote: post #229

I feel a deep sense of pride and hope, palpably in my chest, when I get a week of news about how we're developing much closer ties with our European allies and divesting ourselves of the abusive American relationship. Carney's Davos speech was powerful, but those words needed to be followed by actions, which I think we are seeing. I'm used to being so disappointed by politicians.

[flagged]

Precisely this blame game is part of the abusive relationship.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#410

Post by lostlogin »

bluegatty wrote: post #249

This is actually more likely a non-political procurement decision that looks like a political one. This is the 'right size' for Canada and other nations - the US doesn't offer a true comparable, and, looks like the US balked at buying the 'kind of comparable' Boeing E7 putting it in jeopardy. With European military renaissance and the SAAB gear proving itself in Ukraine ... well, you see the shift. This is the shift…

> I don't think it's going to 'fundamentally' alter the landscape, but it will be a shift we don't come back from.

That sounds like a fundamental change.

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