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Waymo in Portland

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Re: Waymo in Portland

#401

Post by Jblx2 »

Schiendelman wrote: post #375
Jblx2 wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of it probably has to do with train advocates seeming like audiophiles extoling the virtues of phonograph records and the like. It seems like they are nostalgic for an 1880s utopia. That's just the vibe I get. I wonder what people in this thread think about The Line . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Line,_Saudi_Arabia

That's understandable, but I think the mass transit crowd is pretty different. I think you may need to meet more transit advocates!

I think there is also a couple of other factors at play with the online train / mass transit advocates on places like HN. It could just be my imagination, but I think there is trains-are-a-good-solution-for-other-people (but not necessarily for me) contingent. And there is a trains-are-good-for-you transportation method, that you have to put up with for the "greater good". A bitter pill to swallow, not something you actually want. Kind of the opposite for say, electric vehicles, where they currently are a much superior alternative to and internal combustion engine vehicle for almost ever use case (acceleration, $/mile, maintenance, general hassle). That's why I think EVs will inevitably win, even in the U.S.. Maybe someone could come up with a luxury light rail that people would actually want to use? I mentioned it up-thread in the context of California high speed rail, but now I'm going to broaden it. When will personal (flying) quadcopter vehicles have more annual passenger miles than every passenger rail combined (subways/light rail/Amtrak) in the U.S.? I'm could see it happening within my lifetime. Maybe this has some bearing on why I see trains as antiquated?

Re: Waymo in Portland

#402

Post by soiltype »

JuniperMesos wrote: post #343
soiltype wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look I don't fault you - Americans drive cars because every alternative is absolute dogshit, I don't disagree. But I can't e realistic about that and not this: > As for the environmental impact, I agree that trains or busses may sometimes be better for environment That's like saying gunshots may sometimes be more dangerous than throwing rocks. > but we’re also approaching a future of self driving electric cars powere…

These also don't disappear if you replace privately-owned cars with buses and trains. You need paved roads to put buses on and track to put trains on, and they emit particulate pollution as well unless they're also electrified which is a similar problem to electrifying cars. Low-density residential sprawl is mostly water-inefficient because it allows people to have the ability to have a garden that they water, you do…

The problems do diminish significantly if you need fewer lanes by half or more, and have fewer vehicles per person.

Low-density sprawl in the American style is impossible without cars. Streetcar suburbs could exist but those are necessarily more concentrated and again need less road coverage.

Nor can you say the sprawl is what people "actively want" when it's illegal to build to any other pattern in the vast majority of the country.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#403

Post by soiltype »

floxy wrote: post #364
soiltype wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None. Why would you think that? My guess is you're an American living nowhere near an urban rail system but I thought most people here would at least be passing familiar with modern trains. Even some American cities have them.

>modern trains. Even some American cities have them. Which American cities have notable modern train systems? Not Portland, or NYC, or Washington DC.

What do you mean by notable?

Re: Waymo in Portland

#404

Post by eklitzke »

sheept wrote: post #186
xnx wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Portland is really forward-thinking, they would be smart to use this opportunity to jump to the next stage of public transport by focusing on flexible bus routes and Waymo/rideshare subsidies for the poor and disabled.

Self driving cars aren't the next stage of public transport; they're a bandaid solution to American urban design. They're still cars, so they still contribute to traffic and increased pavement wear, and I cannot imagine they'd be cheaper at scale than buses for storage/maintenance/cleaning.

A well run public transit system should obviously be cheaper at scale than robotaxis, but the incentives for Waymo (or Uber, or Lyft, etc.) are very different than the city's incentives. It's very possible that in practice private companies can operate more cheaply at scale than buses because they have much higher incentives to reduce costs and increase efficiency.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#405

Post by yieldcrv »

okay so now imagine Portland with transportation budget cuts and no Waymo

like, do you guys hear yourself? these are unrelated things, cities are always grappling with stuff like this, and at this point in history Waymo is expanding to all cities and will opportunistically prioritize some cities over another while continuing their total rollout

Re: Waymo in Portland

#406

Post by alexose »

RoddaWallPro wrote: post #114
darquomiahw wrote: post #69

Why would anyone take a Waymo when you can ride the Trimet MAX for $2.50?

I rode the MAX when living there for a few years. I vividly recall screaming drugged out homeless riders being a regular feature. The last time I rode, a year ago, there was someone in the throes of the fent-bends in my section, who smelled like he was dying (he well may have been). These incidents haven't made me fear, because I am a relatively big and tall male, but they _definitely_ will for others. And even then,…

I'm a MAX apologist, but you're right. It sucks. I live on the yellow line, and I estimate that there's a visibly (or audibly, or orfactorily) unstable person on the train 50% of the time. I'll ride the train by myself sometimes, but always avoid it with friends or family because it's gotten embarrassing at this point.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#407

Post by Jblx2 »

Schiendelman wrote: post #375
Jblx2 wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of it probably has to do with train advocates seeming like audiophiles extoling the virtues of phonograph records and the like. It seems like they are nostalgic for an 1880s utopia. That's just the vibe I get. I wonder what people in this thread think about The Line . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Line,_Saudi_Arabia

That's understandable, but I think the mass transit crowd is pretty different. I think you may need to meet more transit advocates!

And am I the only one who thinks the concept of a "transit advocate" is a bit odd? I mean, yes, there are people whose career is to make transportation work/better. And they should continue to do so. Were there non-Bell-Telephone-employees that were telephone advocates back in the 1940s? Airline advocates convincing people to fly? Car phone/cell phone brick/flip phone/smart phone advocates?

Re: Waymo in Portland

#408

Post by bbor »

JuniperMesos wrote: post #171
starkparker wrote: post #127

For context, this is coming in as TriMet is laying off staff, reducing service frequency, eliminating bus lines, and cutting parts of light rail routes due to a $300M budget shortfall. The cuts were exacerbated by state Republicans getting a proposed payroll tax repeal onto the ballot next month; TriMet relies heavily on payroll taxes that are deeply unpopular among the self-employed and small business owners, so the…

Yup, it is genuinely convenient that Waymo doesn't rely on an unpopular payroll tax for funding while the bus system does, and also doesn't have human drivers who need to be paid subject to the laws of the city of Portland. But it doesn't actually matter all that much what is going on municipally in Portland at the moment - Waymo (or ideally, a wide variety of competing robotaxi services) should exist everywhere in t…

  Yup, it is genuinely convenient that Waymo doesn't rely on an unpopular payroll tax for funding while the bus system does
To be fair, it gets far more subsidies from the government in general by simple virtue of being a car, they're just A) longterm and thus assumed and B) less visible in general. So I'd say the connection between transit and controversial taxes is arbitrary, really--I'll grant you "convenient", but definitely not genuinely-so!

Portland car infrastructure in particular does get a little love from me just because of how damn impressive some of it is (namely the mountain passage to the west and the complex bridge interchanges on the east side) but it's still car infrastructure.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#409

Post by alexose »

ortuna wrote: post #25

So, these streets are so tiny and pedestrians are used to just walking out on crosswalks because most people stop at crosswalks

Oh man... this will be so awesome as a pedestrian/cyclist. When I see a Waymo coming, I can actually have some reasonable expectation that it will stop for me!

Re: Waymo in Portland

#410

Post by cco »

arnvald wrote: post #5

I wonder if at some point we'll see a hockey stick adoption of self-driving cars. For now every new city is worth a blog post, eventually they'll allow intercity drives. Will international adoption take off? Will I be able to use it on a country road to visit my family in 10 years?

> eventually they'll allow intercity drives

You can drive, on the highway, from San Francisco to San Jose, two cities that are about 50 miles apart.

I suppose you mean something more "road trip-y"? Interstate, not intercity?

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