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I am building a cloud

crawshaw.io

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Re: I am building a cloud

#401

Post by goosejuice »

dajonker wrote: post #74

> Making Kubernetes good is inherently impossible, a project in putting (admittedly high quality) lipstick on a pig. So well put, my good sir, this describes exactly my feelings with k8s. It always starts off all good with just managing a couple of containers to run your web app. Then before you know it, the devops folks have decided that they need to put a gazillion other services and an entire software-defined netw…

I started using GKE at a seed stage company in 2017. It's still going fine today. I had zero ops experience and I found it rather intuitive. We brought in istio for mtls and outbound traffic policies and that worked pretty well too. I can only remember one fairly stressful outage caused by the control plane but it ended up remedying itself. I would certainly only use a managed k8s.

So I guess I'm a fan. I use a monolith for most of my stuff if I have the choice, but if I'm working somewhere or on something where I have to manage a bunch of services I'm most certainly going to reach for k8s.

Re: I am building a cloud

#402

Post by r_lee »

yard2010 wrote: post #96
dajonker wrote: post #74

> Making Kubernetes good is inherently impossible, a project in putting (admittedly high quality) lipstick on a pig. So well put, my good sir, this describes exactly my feelings with k8s. It always starts off all good with just managing a couple of containers to run your web app. Then before you know it, the devops folks have decided that they need to put a gazillion other services and an entire software-defined netw…

I don't get it, I think that k8s is the best software written since win95. It redefines computing in the same way IMHO. I have some experience in working with k8s on prod and I loved every moment of it. I'm definitely missing something.

I think it's just that k8s allows you to shoot yourself in the foot, thus it gets all the blame.

when in reality, you can go very bare-bones with k8s, but people pretend like only the most extreme complexity is what's possible because it's not easy to admit that k8s is actually quite practical in a lot of ways, especially for avoiding drift and automation

that's my take on it

Re: I am building a cloud

#403

Post by holoduke »

dajonker wrote: post #74

> Making Kubernetes good is inherently impossible, a project in putting (admittedly high quality) lipstick on a pig. So well put, my good sir, this describes exactly my feelings with k8s. It always starts off all good with just managing a couple of containers to run your web app. Then before you know it, the devops folks have decided that they need to put a gazillion other services and an entire software-defined netw…

And nowadays with Claude you can spin up clusters of vps machines in a few hours. All bare Debian without anything except nginx and the apps. Mass configuring without any tools using only Claude. Works perfectly. The costs saved without all the overhead is massive.

Re: I am building a cloud

#405

Post by electroly »

ownagefool wrote: post #232
adamtulinius wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you spin up Kubernetes for "a couple of containers to run your web app", I think you're doing something wrong in the first place, also coupled with your comment about adding SDN to Kubernetes. People use Kubernetes for way too small things, and it sounds like you don't have the scale for actually running Kubernetes.

It depends what you're doing it. My app is fairly simple node process with some side car worker processes. k8s enables me to deploy it 30 times for 30 PRs, trivially, in a standard way, with standard cleanup. Can I do that without k8s? Yes. To the same standard with the same amount of effort? Probably not. Here, I'd argue the k8s APIs and interfaces are better than trying to do this on AWS ( or your preferred cloud p…

> I'd argue the k8s APIs and interfaces are better than trying to do this on AWS

I think Amazon ECS is within striking distance, at least. It does less than K8S, but if it fits your needs, I find it an easier deployment target than K8S. There's just a lot less going on.

Re: I am building a cloud

#406

Post by pclark »

I think I am interested in this? I run a bunch of small web apps, currently as fly.io machines. I love fly, but it adds up when I have a bunch of small things that I want isolated — I wish I could have even smaller Fly instances. Exe.dev seems like a good middleground where I can allocate the compute from tiny to large. (?)

Re: I am building a cloud

#407

Post by wredcoll »

ownagefool wrote: post #232
adamtulinius wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you spin up Kubernetes for "a couple of containers to run your web app", I think you're doing something wrong in the first place, also coupled with your comment about adding SDN to Kubernetes. People use Kubernetes for way too small things, and it sounds like you don't have the scale for actually running Kubernetes.

It depends what you're doing it. My app is fairly simple node process with some side car worker processes. k8s enables me to deploy it 30 times for 30 PRs, trivially, in a standard way, with standard cleanup. Can I do that without k8s? Yes. To the same standard with the same amount of effort? Probably not. Here, I'd argue the k8s APIs and interfaces are better than trying to do this on AWS ( or your preferred cloud p…

> a) You're doing something interesting with the k8s APIs, that aren't easy to do on a cloud provider. Essentially, you're a power user. b) You want a cloud abstraction layer because you're multi-cloud or you want a lock-in bargaining chip. c) You want cloud semantics without being on a cloud provider.

This is well put and it's very similar to the arguments made when comparing programming languages. At the end of the day you can accomplish the same tasks no matter which interface you choose.

Personally I've never found kubernetes that difficult to use[1]. It has some weird, unpredictable bits, but so does sysvinit or docker, that just ends up being whatever you're used to.

[1] except for having to install your own network mesh plugin. That part sucked.

Re: I am building a cloud

#408

Post by layer8 »

rbren wrote: post #399

Lots of negativity towards k8s in here. It's always funny to me when $WILDLY_POPULAR_TECH gets ripped apart like this, as though no one has ever had a positive experience with it. I've seen similar pile-ons for React, microservices, git, PHP, JavaScript, cloud services, really anything that's been adopted at scale.

It’s only natural that seeing frequent complaints mostly happens for tech that has high adoption. Stuff that nobody uses doesn’t get many complaints.

Re: I am building a cloud

#409

Post by tayo42 »

electroly wrote: post #405
ownagefool wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends what you're doing it. My app is fairly simple node process with some side car worker processes. k8s enables me to deploy it 30 times for 30 PRs, trivially, in a standard way, with standard cleanup. Can I do that without k8s? Yes. To the same standard with the same amount of effort? Probably not. Here, I'd argue the k8s APIs and interfaces are better than trying to do this on AWS ( or your preferred cloud p…

> I'd argue the k8s APIs and interfaces are better than trying to do this on AWS I think Amazon ECS is within striking distance, at least. It does less than K8S, but if it fits your needs, I find it an easier deployment target than K8S. There's just a lot less going on.

That or fargate if your just running a few containers.

Re: I am building a cloud

#410

Post by wredcoll »

shimman wrote: post #320
ownagefool wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends what you're doing it. My app is fairly simple node process with some side car worker processes. k8s enables me to deploy it 30 times for 30 PRs, trivially, in a standard way, with standard cleanup. Can I do that without k8s? Yes. To the same standard with the same amount of effort? Probably not. Here, I'd argue the k8s APIs and interfaces are better than trying to do this on AWS ( or your preferred cloud p…

Call me old fashion but I prefer tools like Dokploy that make deployment across different VPS extremely easy. Dokploy allows me to utilize my home media server, using local instances of forgejo to deploy code, to great effect. k8s appears to be a corporate welfare jobs program where trillion dollar multinational monopolistic companies are the only ones who can collectively spend 100s of millions sustaining. Since mos…

K8s is just a standardized api for running "programs" on hardware, which is a really difficult problem it solves fairly well.

Is it complex? Yes, but so is the problem it's trying to solve. Is its complexity still nicer and easier to use than the previous generation of multimachine deployment systems? Also yes.

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