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We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

theguardian.com

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Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#401

Post by deaux »

p-e-w wrote: post #239
lateforwork wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is trying. Around the time the US announced restrictions on the H-1B visa, China announced the K visa for attracting immigrants [1]. At this point in time, I don't think people are lining up to get K visa to go live in China. But if the current trajectory continues in the US, who knows how things will be in 5 years? [1] https://www.china-briefing.com/news/chinas-entry-exit-k-visa...

China has a global reputational problem that will take decades to fix. The US has a global reputational advantage that will take decades to fall behind China, regardless of what any US administration does. Nobody sane is going to believe rhetoric claiming that the US is somehow worse than a country that keeps 1.5 million people in concentration camps, and where people work 70 hours per week, no matter how many times…

> The US has a global reputational advantage that will take decades to fall behind China, regardless of what any US administration does.

Whatever makes you sleep at night.

> no matter how many times Reddit tells them so.

Oh god, are we still stuck in that "Reddit is a niche US nerd cave" mindset? In most countries where the youth speaks good English you'll see more under 30s on Reddit than on Facebook or Twitter.

On both counts, you're too stuck in your ways. Times have changed, gotta keep up.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#402

Post by viking123 »

xiphias2 wrote: post #79

USA is still one of the top countries for scientists. Just as an example Europe had a few years of exporting the best GLP-1 drugs (finally something in which Europe was leader in science), Eli Lily quickly took it over. In software San Francisco is still the top for AI research: even when Peter Steinberger didn't know what he will do with OpenClaw, it was clear to him that the only place to move to was USA. Terrence…

I have visited USA but I never liked it enough to want to live there due to the culture being too extroverted for me. I moved to Singapore and like it a lot.

I don't think USA is a bad place, probably the best for your career but I don't see myself enjoying living there too much, although maybe I am generalizing because I only visited New York and SF.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#403

Post by deaux »

newfriend wrote: post #182

For an American startup/technology forum, this place is remarkably anti-America, anti-capitalism, anti-AI, anti-crypto.

Gee, wonder what caused that change over the last decade. Really can't think of a reason.

And just in case you truly believe it's something like "Russian bots" - and I hope you don't - you need to check out the change in the bigger public's opinion on big tech companies, and why it has changed. It's far from just HN.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#404

Post by deaux »

inglor_cz wrote: post #40
beloch wrote: post #25

>"Billions of dollars have been wiped from research budgets, almost 8,000 grants have been cancelled at NIH and the US National Science Foundation alone, and more than 1,000 NIH employees have been fired." ---------------- Scientists go where science is funded. A large proportion of U.S. scientists are also immigrants, who will tend to go where immigrants are welcomed.

Not everything is about money. The killer app of the US used to be that the US was rich and welcoming to foreigners and politically quite free. China or Saudi Arabia can wave their money around, but at least some people will be repulsed by the obligation to keep their mouths shut and praise the Dear Leader. Their cultural insularity does not help either. You can live in China, but you will never be accepted as Chines…

> The US was quite unique (together with Canada, Australia etc.) that it was able and willing to accept you as an American even with a funny accent, as long as you wanted to be one.

Very select parts of the US. Would've thought that the last 9 years taught you that for huge swathes of it, this was never true.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#405

Post by servo_sausage »

pitched wrote: post #141
lgleason wrote: post #67

If you create an economic incentive to go into math an science you will have no trouble attracting good people. But, for years, it has been a race to the bottom where the US over-produced researchers, scientists etc.. But then to put salt in the wound it also imported more of them to drive the wages down further. As more people have flooded in to STEM at bargain basement prices, the quality of the research has also g…

This is the most interesting part of the way the US government is structured. Where the federal government has very little power compared to the states, each state is competing for talent. Like how Texas is more conservative and California is more liberal. May the best policies win. People will move to whichever set of laws better produces success. I don’t think that as true as it once was though.

I don't think it works out in practice; people voted based on identity but move based on economics.

And identity is mostly upbringing... You don't get mostly neutral people moving around to the best system, you get opinionated people trying to bring their preferred system to the better opportunity.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#406

Post by deaux »

direwolf20 wrote: post #193
Cyph0n wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to add one more point that makes the US attractive to global talent: citizenship. In particular: 1) citizenship at birth and 2) viable path to citizenship via green card. Of course, both of these are in the crosshairs for “revision”.

It's much easier to get citizenship almost anywhere else in the world than to get it in the USA by green card.

Name 5 wealthy countries (let's say top 30 HDI) where this holds outside of the EU.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#407

Post by deaux »

shiroiuma wrote: post #352
mulmen wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Germans ran work camps, concentration camps, and death camps. Right now the United States is only running two of the three. We have work camps (prisons) and concentration camps (detention facilities).

That you know of. The German people didn't even know about the death camps running in their own back yards; they thought they were just "regular" concentration/work camps. The Allied troops rounded up lots of German civilians near these camps after the war and forced them at gunpoint to walk through the camps and see for themselves what they had been supporting.

This is on the level of the myth of the clean Wehrmacht.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#408

Post by mulmen »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #390
mulmen wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Internment is long-term (see Wikipedia), The Wikipedia page for Internment [1] doesn't include the words long-term when I view it. Internment is the imprisonment of people, commonly in large groups, without charges or intent to file charges. The term is especially used for the confinement "of enemy citizens in wartime or of terrorism suspects". Thus, while it can simply mean imprisonment, it tends to refer to preve…

Seamus Culleton is allowed to leave detention, he just can't stay in the US. He is choosing to stay in detention while he pursues legal challenges to his deportation order.

Is that true of everyone held by ICE? I see that Seamus declined to be deported to Ireland immediately but does that offer remain open?

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#409

Post by tensor »

cogman10 wrote: post #31
tensor wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that depends on a lot of factors. E.g. will there be a turn around in the US, and if so how fast? Will Europe and other nations increase science funding to account for all the new talent that wants to come? Will that funding be permanent, not just a one time effort? Also, if the US restores their democracy and also decides to value science again, will the salaries for scientists abroad compete enough to preve…

Europe isn't the one to watch, IMO. It's China. China has already significantly increased it's R&D funding and in some areas, particularly solar and battery tech, it's world leading. China also has been playing the long game with the build out of it's technology capabilities. I could very easily see them doing the same for medicine. They aren't afraid of losing money on investment for a particularly long period of ti…

I agree that China is a science superpower and will only improve. That said, I would prefer living under a wester democratic system, so I really do hope that the west picks up what the US drops. I'm totally fine if the west is merely close to equal to China in terms of science.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#410

Post by niemandhier »

tsunamifury wrote: post #307
jjmarr wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese is too difficult of a language. I have spent 5 years learning it part-time and have gotten to a level I can understand 30% of a TV show and 20% of a newspaper. Unfortunately it's two different languages and both are unlike almost anywhere else. The spoken language is tonal and the consonants don't easily match English. If I have a heavy English accent, I just don't speak Chinese instead of sounding like a for…

I have worked in with the Chinese now for two years in technical fields. I have a strict requirement that they learn English as it is a more technical and specific language and less prone to the use of metaphorical weasel words that slow progress. I have openly stated that it is a strictly less technical language and often draws teams in to vague specifications and much more verbose language to find specificity. I ha…

Saphire-Worff is dead; but I think language matters more than we usually assume.

My favourite example is Arabic, which is both an old and hard to extend language.

In Arabic you would have a hard time to express the concept of „a foreigner who is citizen but resides out of state“.

Not that we often speak about this concept in English, but the word used to refer to „citizens“ carries the connotation of „nation“ and the alternative word used for „inhabitants“ carries the connotation of being on site.

Speaking of a Yemeni citizen and than meeting an Asian person, would surprise people even if they new that the person they were meeting was named „Ho“.

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