Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

blog.alaindichiappari.dev

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

401–410 of 611 posts

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#401

Post by giancarlostoro »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #323
giancarlostoro wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If its on github eventually it will cycle into the training data. I have also seen Claude pull down code to look at from github.

Wouldn't there be a chicken and egg problem once humans stop writing new code directly? Who would write the code using this new framework? Are the examples written by the creators of the framework enough to train an AI?

There's tooling out there 100% vibe coded, that is used by tens of thousands of devs daily, if that codebase found its way to training data, would it somehow ruin everything? I don't think this is really a problem, the problem will become people will need to identify good codebases from bad ones, if you point out which codes bad during training it makes a difference. There's a LOT of writings about how to write better code out there that I'm sure are already part of the training data.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#403

Post by giancarlostoro »

catlifeonmars wrote: post #280
kenjackson wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. For area where you can use tested and tried libraries (or tools in general) LLMs will generate better code when they use them. In fact, LLMs will be better than humans in learning new frameworks. It could end up being the opposite that frameworks and libraries become more important with LLMs.

LLMs famously aren’t that good at using new frameworks/languages. Sure they can get by with the right context, but most people are pointing them at standard frameworks in common languages to maximize the quality of their output.

I asked Claude to use some Dlang libraries even I had not heard of and it built a full blown proof of concept project for me, using obscure libraries nobody really knows. It just looked through docs and source code. Maybe back 3 years ago this would have been the case.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#404

Post by Retric »

seff wrote: post #365
athrowaway3z wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see why people are skeptical devs can be 10x as productive. But something I'd bet money on is that devs are 10x more productive at using these tools.

I view the current tools as more of a multiplier of base skill. A 1x engineer may become a 5x engineer, but a -1x will also produce 5x more bad code.

Several experiments have shown quality of output at every skill level drops.

In many cases the quantity of output is good enough to compensate, but quality is extremely difficult to improve at scale. Beefing up QA to handle significantly more code of noticeably lower quality only goes so far.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#405

Post by fragmede »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #253
mark242 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that it's going to be the opposite. At re:Invent, one of the popular sessions was in creating a trio of SRE agents, one of which did nothing but read logs and report errors, one of which did analysis of the errors and triaged and proposed fixes, and one to do the work and submit PRs to your repo. Then, as part of the session, you would artificially introduce a bug into the system, then run into the bug…

> Unless you are only ever a single engineer, your career is filled with "I need to debug code I didn't write". That's the vast majority of my job and I've yet to find a way to have LLMs not be almost but not entirely useless at helping me with it. (also, it's filled with that even when you are a single engineer)

And even if you are the single engineer, I'll be honest, it might as well have been somebody else that wrote the code if I have to go back to something I did seven years ago and unearth wtf.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#406

Post by [deleted] »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #403
catlifeonmars wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs famously aren’t that good at using new frameworks/languages. Sure they can get by with the right context, but most people are pointing them at standard frameworks in common languages to maximize the quality of their output.

I asked Claude to use some Dlang libraries even I had not heard of and it built a full blown proof of concept project for me, using obscure libraries nobody really knows. It just looked through docs and source code. Maybe back 3 years ago this would have been the case.

[deleted]

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#407

Post by james_marks »

robhlt wrote: post #333
mark242 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that it's going to be the opposite. At re:Invent, one of the popular sessions was in creating a trio of SRE agents, one of which did nothing but read logs and report errors, one of which did analysis of the errors and triaged and proposed fixes, and one to do the work and submit PRs to your repo. Then, as part of the session, you would artificially introduce a bug into the system, then run into the bug…

It's nice that AI can fix bugs fast, but it's better to not even have bugs in the first place. By using someone else's battle tested code (like a framework) you can at least avoid the bugs they've already encountered and fixed.

Because frameworks don’t have bugs? Or unpredictable dependency interactions?

This is generous, to the say the least.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#408

Post by owenversteeg »

There are a few interesting points in the comments here.

The pro case for getting rid of frameworks: they're bulky, complex, there are security holes, updates to keep up with, things keep changing. LLMs can write you something perfectly customized to what you're doing. You get some free security by obscurity.

The con case: LLMs are excellent at getting you up to speed with a framework and understanding issues. As avidiax says in this thread, "The author seems to mistake having to update Node.js for a security patch to be a curse rather than a blessing. You get the privilege of patching Node.js." Security by obscurity is generally a bad design. To me, the general architecture and maintainability is a huge issue when you have LLMs write everything from scratch. Not that a Node or React app is a paragon of maintainability or architecture, but it's certainly better than something made from scratch by an LLM. The code quality of a framework is also far higher.

I personally feel like the best path today is to use something lightweight, like Svelte. You get the best of both worlds. Light structure but nothing overbearing.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#409

Post by rirze »

athrowaway3z wrote: post #313
dasil003 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with both you and the GP. Yes, coding is being totally revolutionized by AI, and we don't really know where the ceiling will be (though I'm skeptical we'll reach true AGI any time soon), but I believe there still an essential element of understanding how computer systems work that is required to leverage AI in a sustainable way. There is some combination of curiosity of inner workings and precision of thought…

I can see why people are skeptical devs can be 10x as productive. But something I'd bet money on is that devs are 10x more productive at using these tools.

Like others are saying, AI will accelerate the gap between competent devs and mediocre devs. It is a multiplier. AI cannot replace fundamentals, at least not a good helmsman with a good rational, detail-oriented mind. Having fundamentals (skill & knowledge) + using AI will be the cheat code in the next 10 years.

The only historical analogue of this is perhaps differentiating a good project manager from an excellent one. No matter how advanced, technology will not substitute for competence.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#410

Post by leptons »

J_Shelby_J wrote: post #357
athrowaway3z wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see why people are skeptical devs can be 10x as productive. But something I'd bet money on is that devs are 10x more productive at using these tools.

Id wager my life savings that devs aren’t even 1.5x more productive using these tools.

It probably depends on the developer, and how much slop/bugs is willing to be tolerated.
Post reply on HN