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Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

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Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#401

Post by morshu9001 »

grim_io wrote: post #139
nish__ wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the worst argument ever. The choices in the Linux community is what's made it the best OS in the world today.

Linux on the desktop only took of because Ubuntu, with mixed results and a lot of controversy, decided to standardize and polish the experience for "normies". The distribution sprawl I largely see as a detriment to the ecosystem.

Yeah but Ubuntu screwed up switching from Gnome to Unity back then, which sent tons of users elsewhere. You can't just rug-pull the entire GUI people were used to, which was also similar to Windows.

Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#402

Post by torginus »

KetoManx64 wrote: post #331
torginus wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't accessibility outside of the scope of Wayland, whose purpose is to composite application buffers, and deliver input events? Something like a screen reader needs to talk to an app and query the toolkit for the contents of a window in a semantic way - that's a toolkit feature not a compositor one.

What does this matter for blind people who want to use Linux? All that matters to them is that it's super complicated and nobody wants to work with the tech to make screen readers work on Wayland.

To my knowledge, X11 didn't offer a comprehensive accessibility API either - there's no Linux equivalent of stuff like MS Active Accessibility or MSUIA on Linux.

Even back then Qt, GTK and everyone else offered their own API and screen readers needed to integrate with every single one - this didn't really change under Wayland, only the sandboxing makes certain operations harder, but the accessibility story on Linux is not great, and never was.

Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#403

Post by amiga-workbench »

superb_dev wrote: post #38
amiga-workbench wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine because vsync and triple buffering introduce latency. There are cases like games where you don't want all that lag.

If the goal was to reduce latency, wouldn’t you want the desktop compositor out of the way when vsync is on?

That's very true, and I believe Wayland has a DRM leasing extension just for this use case. SteamVR uses it to punch through the compositor and draw straight to the screen.

Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#404

Post by shakna »

torginus wrote: post #402
KetoManx64 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this matter for blind people who want to use Linux? All that matters to them is that it's super complicated and nobody wants to work with the tech to make screen readers work on Wayland.

To my knowledge, X11 didn't offer a comprehensive accessibility API either - there's no Linux equivalent of stuff like MS Active Accessibility or MSUIA on Linux. Even back then Qt, GTK and everyone else offered their own API and screen readers needed to integrate with every single one - this didn't really change under Wayland, only the sandboxing makes certain operations harder, but the accessibility story on Linux i…

The standard was Extended Window Manager Hints [0].

Above X11, implemented by GTK and everyone else. Right.

However... Wayland makes it impossible to implement EWMH. Which means the enrire EMWH standard needs to be tossed, and everyone needs to make something new.

You can't even get the title of a window, under Wayland. That's private to that process tree.

Wayland requires accessibility be implemented at the application level, not the window manager. And thats guaranteed to make it always broken for a majority of use cases.

[0] https://specifications.freedesktop.org/wm/latest/

Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#405

Post by shakna »

nialv7 wrote: post #280
shakna wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until Wayland actually has an accesibility story, X is really the only choice. Don't think most grassroots projects will have that.

pretty sure at-spi is independent from the display server

Parts of AT-SPI are impossible to implement under Wayland.

> Wayland has no concept of global coordinates or global key bindings. The protocol itself is designed around atomicity which is a nice concept, but is fundamentally in conflict to the need of assistive technologies to control the entire state of the desktop globally. As such, atspi methods like get_accessible_at_point are impossible in Wayland.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45237411

Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#407

Post by skydhash »

figmert wrote: post #189
akho wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Linux on the desktop since 1997, and there was no point where Windows was even slightly more attractive. I don't know what "prime time" means here. edit: apart from, you know. Applications and drivers for random hardware.

With prime time I mean being comfortable enough to install it for a non-technical user. Even during Ubuntu's Unity days it didn't feel like I could install it on a computer for my parents or siblings for them to use as a daily driver.

I can bet there’s no OS that are easy to install for a non-technical user. And that start from booting the installation media. Give someone a OS with their software already installed and they will use whatever OS that is.

People are always task-oriented, not tool oriented unless they’re nerds.

Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#408

Post by superkuh »

LeFantome wrote: post #248
imtringued wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the protocol spec being minimal is that it enables a wide variety of implementations, something it definitely succeeded at. I still don't know how people twist this obvious success into a failure.

Xorg fans reverse all the normal Open Source logic. Imagine we were talking about web browsers… There should only be one! No security makes all my extensions work!

It's a very forced comparison trying to swap in the web's security model, where one runs untrusted code from arbitrary third parties automatically, for a personal desktop computer context where a single user is in complete control.

Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#409

Post by self_awareness »

wmf wrote: post #21
sho_hn wrote: post #11

Pretty interesting approach to make an X server that is essentially "Wayland-like" (merging display server/compositor by default, isolated apps by default, no remoting of GLX, dropping legacy protocol features to the point of breaking compat with the core protocol, etc.). Not sure who this is for, but by itself it looks like a fairly reasonable set of choices.

For people who absolutely have to have X11 this looks like a better plan than XLibre.

Why a new incomplete implementation would be better to use than a project that is stable, full-featured, and with a proven track record?

Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#410

Post by self_awareness »

iamnothere wrote: post #34

This is the kind of initiative I’d prefer to see from X preservationists. Great job, I hope it succeeds. I prefer Wayland, but there’s still a place in the world for X; it just needs new dev teams to shoulder the burden.

Why would a new rewrite be better preservation strategy than a full refactor and refresh of existing stable and working codebase?
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