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French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

bbc.com

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Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#401

Post by shepherdjerred »

Demiurge wrote: post #389

This is slightly off-topic, but is it "jail" or "prison"? I see this switch all the time, and French does not make a difference. But, in English, and many other languages, jail is more specific than prison, and is usually for short term or pre-sentencing holding. If someone is sentenced, it's usually a different facility called "prison". Is BBC making a mistake, or are they actually saying Sarkozy will be held in in…

this is how I remember it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq2ICyCSSpM

for those who don't watch videos:

you go to jail if a cop doesn't like you. you can only go to prison if you're poor.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#402

Post by ctrlp »

greatgib wrote: post #146

Something really scary in France right now is that you can see really clearly how most mainstream media are used for propaganda. Since a few days, there is an abundance of cover and articles in most major newspaper here with propaganda and repeated lies supporting him. It's hard to imagine but non stop. You have everyday interviews of his family saying that it is an injustice, that he did nothing, that the judgement…

This is hopelessly naive. Heads of state should not be prosecuted in democracies. It sets a bad precedent and there is no easy way to apply the rule of law to the head of state. There are too many examples in history of abusive lawfare practices. Better not to nitpick about "crimes" in such cases and let the man disappear from the stage. Aggressive prosecutions only increase the likelihood he'll try to mount a political comeback.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#403

Post by derektank »

seszett wrote: post #319
ransom1538 wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imprisoning political prisoners is a great kick off to a bright future (historically speaking).

Sarkozy is not a political prisoner though. He's a politician that committed fraud by taking foreign money to finance his electoral campaign. Once elected he then proceeded to declare war to the dictator who gave him that money and eventually got him killed. That last point is sadly not in the scope of the judgement.

Are we crying tears over Muammar Gaddafi here? The man was a butcher and NATO was completely justified in imposing a no fly zone and supporting the National Transition Council in Libya. There was a UN Security Council resolution authorizing it.

Lots of things to criticize Sarkozy for but his support for the intervention is not one of them.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#404

Post by LunaSea »

lucasRW wrote: post #42
qq66 wrote: post #23

So is this a criminal president receiving justice, or a politically motivated prosecution?

A bit of both, there's no doubt he's more than guilty. But it is also clear that judges (who are notable left-leaning, if not far-left) are much more efficient at prosecuting right-wing figures (Fillon, for 0 reason this time).

Fillion was very clearly guilty since he hired his own wife with public money while she never worked a day in her life at that job.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#405

Post by stenl »

ctrlp wrote: post #402
greatgib wrote: post #146

Something really scary in France right now is that you can see really clearly how most mainstream media are used for propaganda. Since a few days, there is an abundance of cover and articles in most major newspaper here with propaganda and repeated lies supporting him. It's hard to imagine but non stop. You have everyday interviews of his family saying that it is an injustice, that he did nothing, that the judgement…

This is hopelessly naive. Heads of state should not be prosecuted in democracies. It sets a bad precedent and there is no easy way to apply the rule of law to the head of state. There are too many examples in history of abusive lawfare practices. Better not to nitpick about "crimes" in such cases and let the man disappear from the stage. Aggressive prosecutions only increase the likelihood he'll try to mount a politi…

He was not head of state when the crime was committed and he is not head of state now.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#406

Post by wubrr »

greatgib wrote: post #146

Something really scary in France right now is that you can see really clearly how most mainstream media are used for propaganda. Since a few days, there is an abundance of cover and articles in most major newspaper here with propaganda and repeated lies supporting him. It's hard to imagine but non stop. You have everyday interviews of his family saying that it is an injustice, that he did nothing, that the judgement…

The fact that he is even going to jail, or that there was a trial at all, is amazing. In Canada, top-level corruption like this just gets covered up by RCMP (who are directly top-down controlled by PM) - many cases of this.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#407

Post by stickfigure »

juliendorra wrote: post #388
stickfigure wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just spent a few weeks in southern France. Lovely place, lovely food, lovely people... ...with one national flaw. All that lovely food is available strictly between the hours of 12 and 2 (for lunch) and 7 and 9 (for dinner). If you don't eat on the precise timetable as everyone else (say, jetlag) then you don't eat.

Wider range in bigger cities, I think it’s quite common everywhere? Small town restaurants need pauses

Even in small towns in the US, it's fairly rare for restaurants to have such limited hours. It's more commonly seen with high end restaurants in cities.

I certainly understand why, I'm not mad about it, just a disappointed. I really liked the food.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#408

Post by schmidtleonard »

orionsbelt wrote: post #336
schmidtleonard wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for reminding me, he also broke campaign finance laws with the pornstar payoff. No, if Joe Biden had the same facts against him the entire right wing -- including you -- would be eagerly prosecuting them and singing of the high-minded justice in doing so. Have you forgotten "lock her up!"? "President is above the law" is a far more dangerous precedent to set, and "nominees are above the law" is out-of-this-wor…

Assumptions, assumptions... I am not right wing, have never voted for Trump or chanted "lock her up", and no, I believe in principles and not party loyalty and would have felt the same had it been Biden. I was also against Clinton's impeachment for the same reason. Stormy Daniels and Monica Lewinsky were both private sexual matters, and to try to use ancillary technical crimes (obstruction; campaign finance) to remov…

If impartial non-partisan justice were your concern, you would spend your time focusing on the most egregious violations (Aileen Canon, the Supreme Court, etc) rather than grabbing the conversation by the horns and aggressively steering it towards an alleyway where you hoped to force a draw.

Your choices betray your priorities and they are not what you claim.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#409

Post by AnonymousPlanet »

Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe wrote: post #179
tsoukase wrote: post #178

A former Prime Minister of a first world country in jail is insane. He must have made a crime without the help of others because in political scandals usually a whole gang of public people is liable. Then you have to convict the monkey with the bananas and the whole tree. If we follow the French justice, in my country (Greece) about 10% of people including almost all the politicians of the last decades should be in j…

Well the crime was about using syria's then dictator muhammar kadafi's blood money for his first presidential campaign. So there is a very strong incentive to keep this as private as possible. And in effect he's not the only one to be trialed and judged.

And everyone can guess who was president when France was very eager to move against him. The UN mandate was just for securing the air space. But France and Britain successfully went in for the kill instead, making sure Sarkozy never had to pay back that money.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#410

Post by ctrlp »

stenl wrote: post #405
ctrlp wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is hopelessly naive. Heads of state should not be prosecuted in democracies. It sets a bad precedent and there is no easy way to apply the rule of law to the head of state. There are too many examples in history of abusive lawfare practices. Better not to nitpick about "crimes" in such cases and let the man disappear from the stage. Aggressive prosecutions only increase the likelihood he'll try to mount a politi…

He was not head of state when the crime was committed and he is not head of state now.

That matters little. It's a category error. People say things like "no one is above the law" but that isn't true. Not because of corruption, but because of the nature of politics. Law is downstream from politics and therefore in a very real sense subservient to it. To apply the law to political figures can never be done in a clean or unambiguous way, since it will always support the suspicion of lawfare, which degrades confidence in the law for the rest of us. To preserve the law for the common stock, we can't use law against political figures without debasing the currency of law. It is also the case that trying to constrain political figures using the law is anti-democratic. If the will of the people can be overruled by the shrewd use of legal challenges then you have a juristocracy, not a democracy. The legal system can and will be abused when it is used politically.

Not only is it a category error, it is undesireable. Let them fight it out in the special realm of politics and leave our legal systems alone so we can enjoy their benefits.

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