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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#401

Post by titanomachy »

joomla199 wrote: post #275
anilgulecha wrote: post #20

I'm part of the Jain community in Bangalore, and the version of this in society exists, called Sallekhna [1], a tradition that's developed over millennia, and this is venerated and celebrated. The philosophical underpinning is giving up of materialness. The practicality of the 5 instances that I witnessed over the past year - typical terminal individuals choose this. They pass away surrounded by loved ones (they typi…

In a similar vein India also has/had Thalaikoothal, which is more of a traditional method of homicide than suicide. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalaikoothal

"They are given an oil bath and made to drink glasses of coconut water"

I'm surprised that someone can be killed in this way. Is it the electrolyte imbalance? There's a lot of potassium in coconut water.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#402

Post by Noaidi »

raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #298
Noaidi wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day? Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they? How many people struggling today think that their life will get no better? Look at all those who made it through slavery, what hope did they have? Their hope came from their faith. Suffering has a purpose, this is something your grandmother understands through her faith. Buddhists under…

If I’m 95 years old with terminal cancer, my life isn’t going to get better. And please don’t bring some mythical being in the argument.

Both the Buddha andJesus were real people. I wasn’t bringing up God as I don’t believe in a Christian God, and Buddhists don’t believe in God at all.

But those two characters taught us a lot about suffering. Where it comes from and how to face suffering with courage and not just throw your morals out the window once you have the glimpse of even future suffering.

Maybe it’s just me, but I see every moment as the best it can possibly be. Whether I’m seeing this gorgeous sunny blue sky today or I’m 95 years old with terminal cancer. It’s a miracle to be born and to exist in this world, it’s extremely rare. And I want to live every last second of it. Maybe that’s what’s upsetting me about reading what he wrote. If you just try to grab the good times in this life and use that as a goal you’re going to be severely disappointed.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#403

Post by rkomorn »

__s wrote: post #384
rkomorn wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I don't get why things get downvoted on here. What's downvote-worthy about this comment? It's in response to mine, and even though I don't really agree with it, I don't see what's so objectionable that it needs some sort of admonition?

Didn't downvote, but I think the writing has a flippant voice. In combination with an unpopular opinion I've been able to attract downvotes in the same way

Interesting. I didn't read it as flippant, myself. I actually thought it was voiced similarly to mine (which I don't think is flippant either) and to the point. Oh well. Mysteries of HN.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#404

Post by Noaidi »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #400
Noaidi wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But do people who have dementia or say a mental illness have the capacity to make that decision? It sounds like Daniel Kahneman was suffering from depression after his wife's death and all he saw in the rest of his life was sadness. He had no hope. What day was the best day to die? What if the next day his hope came back?

Why do you see depression? Note the article mentions a partner--he lost his wife but he had found someone else so I do not think this is a result of losing his wife.

I think it was this part that stuck out to me.

“His partner died in 2018 as a result of vascular dementia. The loss affected him deeply.”

I can see that loss affecting him even though he had a new partner. Depression does not always go away when you meet someone new.

But I think people with depression have lost hope in the future. And it sounds like he lost Hope in his future.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#405

Post by LorenPechtel »

imtringued wrote: post #396
hannofcart wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, I urge you to consider whether it is your statement that is overly dismissive. Is there perhaps some existing conditioning, maybe in the form of religious upbringing that is driving your reaction to this? Many of us in fact find OP's a very thoughtful comment than a "silly statement". > By your logic we should kill everyone at their peak. No, they suggested that the old and ailing whose quality of li…

The problem is on your end. Consider the following scenarios: There is a red button that orders your euthanasia. Pressing it instantly teleports you to a euthanasia facility and leads to your death unless you say no within 30 seconds. The button reads your fingerprint and can only be pressed by you. (Assume science fiction level technology to make this true) 1. The button is located 5000 km away from you in an unknow…

I see nobody obsessing about pushing red buttons. I see people that would like for option #3 to exist. And when death approaches, option #5.

A simple test of how people feel: Consider the twin towers. We saw quite a few people choosing jumping over fire. We do not question people making such a choice. It is the same choice, just on a much more compressed time scale.

(And we have the bonkers case out of WWII: the guy survived apparently uninjured. Someone who made the choice and was still around to ask them why. We don't know exactly what happened, no analysis was made at the time but attempting to reconstruct the situation said he probably hit the outer part of a pine tree and then rolled down a snowbank. He had on heavy clothing and had blacked out during the fall--not exactly surprising as he jumped from 18,000'.)

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#406

Post by Noaidi »

lukan wrote: post #272
hrimfaxi wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, but what if I ain't a christian nor a buddhist and don't think suffering as a normal living condition is necessary? (Can you proof it is? Also I don't think all christians/buddhists share that believe) At the very least, suffering (through childbirth) is a prerequisite to bringing life into this world. edit: strange that this is flagged. my parent asked for proof that suffering is inherent in life, and I don'…

No, I asked for proof that a constant condition of suffering is inherent of life. Not that suffering is also part of life. (Vouched for it to be able to reply)

There is no such thing as constant suffering and there’s no such thing as constant joy.

Without suffering, we would not know joy and without joy we wouldn’t know suffering. So these are two sides of the same coin, do you see that?

It’s our attachment to ourselves that brings us both joy and suffering. So, I’m sorry, if you want to get rid of suffering you’re going to get rid of joy as well. So I don’t know if dying brings us joy or gets rid of our suffering. We really don’t know what happens to us after we die, do we? You can say that everything just ends, but I’m really not wanting to say that because, well, I’m still alive.

I told my schizophrenic brother why he shouldn’t take his life by suicide. I just asked him if he knew what it was like being dead and if he thought he was certain that being dead would be any better. He literally told me the confusion of that question. Let him to accepting his life as it was. Better the Devil You Know than the one you don’t.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#407

Post by LorenPechtel »

WA wrote: post #12
lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

Yeah but if you are in that state, you probably don’t give a shit and everybody else seems to be the problem. So how do you solve this? When dementia isn’t too far progressed, your life seems to be still worthwhile to live and once the dementia gets worse, it’s too late to realize this.

Give me a timer. Like the previous discussion of a red button it verifies identity. I can set the timer for whatever I want, if it reaches zero it peacefully kills me. Dementia, set the timer for say 1 month. If my mind is too far gone to reset it it will run down.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#408

Post by LorenPechtel »

voakbasda wrote: post #342
beedeebeedee wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and that is one of the reasons our culture has made practices like these taboo- it can give the veneer of respectability to despicable acts

And why there should be more nuance to the issue: legalizing suicide is not the same as legalizing assisted suicide. I want to be free to die on my own terms. Conversely, I do not want the healthcare system to be allowed to even suggest it.

The healthcare system should not be allowed to suggest it. And it should require an independent review if you request it. That doesn't mean the system shouldn't be allowed to provide it.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#409

Post by stackskipton »

croes wrote: post #54
stackskipton wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Argument is that economists knew exactly what would happen when they got linked with Nobel Prizes and help solidify economics as hard science like physics, medicine or math in eyes of the public. Begin debate around how scientific is some economics.

Is math considered a science?

Yes?

You can form hypothesis and prove it or not.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#410

Post by agnosticmantis »

"His decision seems to have been based less on his famous scientific thinking and more on a very personal feeling. He wanted to retain his autonomy until the end and to shape his own end."

So you could say it was more system 1 thinking rather than system 2.

I would've expected the opposite given our survival instincts.

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