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German government comes out against Chat Control

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#401

Post by glenstein »

zmgsabst wrote: post #201
glenstein wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the Axis powers from World War II are the most obvious demonstrations of nationalism begetting authoritarianism. Germany, Italy, and Japan were nationalist in the extreme. And Italy from that time is such a clear example that it's basically the canonical example used to teach how fascism emerges. Contemporary examples include the Philippines, Hungary, Poland's Law and Justice Party, and arguably Russia, Turkey a…

But that would only be something nationalism signaled if the converse weren’t also true — eg, totalitarian states like the USSR, CCP, etc. Those also had: - grievance narratives; - a tendency to divide the world into loyal citizens and enemies; and, - use the above to justify authoritarian powers. You haven’t shown that nationalism played a particular part in that cycle; just that it also happened in nationalist stat…

I actually considered listing them as additional examples, but I had to stop somewhere and they had their own distinct wrinkles.

I think the major difference in their respective cases pertain to the ideological dynamics of the particular strains of communism that manifested in those countries. What they lack is a fixation on the purity of national heritage as a primary source of moral truth and a foundation for a self conception. Instead they tended to regard themselves as part of universal, international struggle and understood conflict in economic and ideological terms. What they had in common was the sense that conflict with this chosen enemy necessitated authoritarianism.

There's more than one path to authoritarianism, and they overlap. Different mechanisms don't disprove one another, they exist side by side.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#402

Post by bildung »

constantcrying wrote: post #240
IngoBlechschmid wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good friend of mine was recently sentenced to prison for publicly using this kind of phrase during a protest for climate justice. When Germany's equivalent of the Supreme Court, the Bundesverfassungsgericht, learned of this case, the court immediately ordered their release and declared the original verdict void: According to the Bundesverfassungsgericht, (in the specific situation at hand) this phrase is more a val…

[flagged]

The CCC hasn't been only about computers since inception. They were clearly already political in the 80s, just have a look at this zine: https://ds.ccc.de/pdfs/ds024.pdf

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#403

Post by selfmodruntime »

dns_snek wrote: post #381
selfmodruntime wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What percentage of German companies are owned and managed by its workers? This sentence does not apply because "social market economy" does not imply that companies should be owned by their workes. > What percentage are owned by capitalists, generating private profits? This sentence does not apply because a "social market economy" does not forbid the generation of profits. Profits are to be shared with the populace…

By your own definitions the USA isn't a capitalist economy due to regulations and their social welfare policies. If that's where you stand then any further discussion is going to be pointless. >> You're essentially arguing that real capitalism hasn't been attempted yet > I have not and you are free to cite where I did. It's a straightforward logical inference. Your definition of capitalism excludes every capitalist e…

> By your own definitions the USA isn't a capitalist economy due to regulations and their social welfare policies. If that's where you stand then any further discussion is going to be pointless.

Those are not my definitions.

> It's a straightforward logical inference. Your definition of capitalism excludes every capitalist economy that has ever existed

No. A social market economy is capitalism with rules and safety nets, like strong labor protections, healthcare, and pensions, to make sure people are protected from big hardships. The U.S. mostly has free-market capitalism, with fewer regulations and weaker social support. So the main difference is that a social market economy tries to control capitalism to protect people, while the U.S. mostly lets the market run on its own.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#405

Post by selfmodruntime »

gambiting wrote: post #393
selfmodruntime wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, correct me if I'm wrong - but according to this random website I found in 5 seconds of googling: I will, because you are! Unfortunately, it's really easy because the German government applies a simple slight of hand. They call it a "gross employer contribution", which increases this band of income tax beyond the 45% you pay after the GEC. [1] It works like this: As your employer is paying your wage, amount X,…

I mean sure, but does that actually add up to over 50% of your income? Here in the UK it works exactly the same as you described, but the NI is 10% of your income - even if you are in the highest band for incomne tax(also 45%) you wouldn't get to 50% overall, maybe if you make millions a year that average would start getting close to 50% (and if you do, congrats!) And can I comment on the fact that Germany seems to b…

No, it adds up to almost 50% of your wage. People who make millions of dollars (freelancers, company shareholders, etc) pay capital gains taxes of 25%. High earning people have capital, not a wage, either by way of company shares or asset payouts. They pay a tiny bit more tax and no social obligations

You forget that the 42% band kicks in at 68000 (up until 280k) not 10k from the median wage. You pay this with 1.2% of the median wage, when in the distant past (around 1960) you had 42% at 15 times the median wage. They never changed these bands to adjust for inflation.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#406

Post by onli »

modo_mario wrote: post #389
onli wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear energy is very expensive and does not necessarily provide energy security. You just have to check on the energy usage in France during the summer, when the nuclear power plants had to be shut down repeatedly now. Pushing nuclear power would neither provide reliable nor cheap energy. The route forward is solar, hydro, wind and batteries.

Yet it used to be very cheap. In some places it still is cheap whilst being much safer than in the past. Meanwhile the requirements for it and the processes it has to abide by are kafkaesque. Not in a double down on security way. Just plain nonsensical. I have heard so many stories from outside and people workin in it. Things like considering refabricating the same lightbulb from some now non existant company from th…

It was never cheap. Nuclear energy got a lot of subventions which limited the prices as seen by end users, but not cheap in general. You can read a writeup of the parliamentary scientific service about that at https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/877586/4e4dce913c3d88...

A striking example is the German state having to pay for storing the nuclear waste (temporary and final, see https://www.bafa.de/DE/Wirtschaft/Handwerk_Industrie/Rueckba..., though Germany has no final storage). Also when tearing down the old plants it can happen that the state is paying for that, as in https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/atomkraft-n.... Those costs were not part of the calculated energy costs, and in the past there were further subventions for the companies that lowered the price. Those are also listed at my first link.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#407

Post by kakacik »

selfmodruntime wrote: post #372
indigo945 wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a different case though. The Habeck meme thing happened somewhere near Bamberg, the CBS article recounts "state police [...] raided this apartment in northwest Germany". Look, I'm not saying that the police or the ministry of the interior never abuse their power, far from it. (There was also the Andy Grote case a few years back.) But please remember that the original claim we are discussing, from a few comment…

Germany does have limited Freedom. I won't move an inch in this matter. The exact paragraph behind the Habeck or Grote case is now being abused by the literal thousands each year. And violent crime is on the rise, we are currently back at a 2005 level. It is very easy to find sources on this matter.

No place has absolute freedom, not sure what you are rambling about. Making up some extra categories that suit your own narrative doesn't change reality.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#408

Post by jagermo »

miohtama wrote: post #188
ho_schi wrote: post #145

The CDU/CSU is doing something good. That didn't happened for a long time? I appreciate it. Ausgerechnet Spahn. Manchmal glaubt man seinen Augen und Ohren nicht. Wir müssen Wachsam bleiben. Mit dem Argument das es böse Menschen gibt, wurde schon viel böses getan. Massenüberwachung zerstört jede Gesellschaft. Deutschland hat mehrfach darunter gelitten. Und die Versuche Massenüberwachung einzuführen wiederholen sich.

Also, even AfD agrees with them on this.

with their history of questionable chats and leaks i don't doubt it.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#409

Post by onli »

jaapz wrote: post #382
onli wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear is not clean. It causes toxic nuclear waste that will still be radioactive when our civilization ends, radiating the humans of the future. CO2 emissions are also still caused by it, and would grow when mining for nuclear material got harder by continued usage. > other EU country's have been net neutral for CO2 emissions for a while now. No EU country has achieved that, to my knowledge. It would be very surpri…

> CO2 emissions are also still caused by it, and would grow when mining for nuclear material got harder by continued usage. Not nearly even in the same ballpark as setting fossil fuels on fire, or do you have any sources that show otherwise?

The low figure of CO2 usage often cited is based on an estimation you can read at https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1530-9290.... I don't remember it giving a clear estimate on how much it rises, but that is understandable, as already the current estimate is not a reliable figure.

But it's the wrong comparison. Nuclear energy is not to be replaced with fossil energy, but with renewables. So that "advantage" is completely irrelevant.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#410

Post by jagermo »

egeozcan wrote: post #238
zahlman wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why AfD would be expected to disagree here. What, just on principle, because it's CDU/CSU?

AfD is classified as extreme-right not only in the eyes of the public, but also by German intelligence. Therefore I'd personally expect them to support potential tools that authoritarian governments would find useful.

they will, just not as long as it could potentially be used against them.
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