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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

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Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#401

Post by Levitz »

palata wrote: post #314
buildbot wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely untrue! Important communications have always been enciphered since language has been created I’d wager, whether that cipher is specific terms (grog means attack that person in 10 seconds!) or a book cipher, e.i. The first letter of a bible verse than the second letter of the next verse etc. Humans have been encrypting communication since communication was possible. It is now only recently possible…

> Humans have been encrypting communication since communication was possible. Were most people encrypting their handwritten letters? Were most people encrypting their messages before sending them by SMS or with WhatsApp? Really?

No, because there was an expectation of privacy. That expectation is no longer there.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#402

Post by dekken_ »

txrx0000 wrote: post #287

Dear citizens of the EU: If this gets pushed through, you will gradually lose control of your government much like how the people of the UK already lost control of theirs. What are you going to do when the government's interests inevitably drift out of alignment with yours? Start a political movement? You will have the police knocking on your door for criticizing the establishment. Start a revolution? You have no wea…

> you will gradually lose control of your government

Already happened. That this keeps getting put forward is the evidence. Representative democracy, is not a democracy at all.

Sic semper tyrannis.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#404

Post by olejorgenb »

palata wrote: post #312
kypro wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're all assuming that predators who are already deliberating using apps which are encrypted to share CSAM won't just move to something else where there is encryption – which will always be possible unless the EU fines a way to ban maths or reverts back to the pre-digital age. This might catch the odd moron sharing stuff on Facebook or on their phone, but I doubt it will stop the average offender was is already goi…

> but I doubt it will stop the average offender I strongly believe it will catch the average offender. The average human doesn't have a clue about cryptography. It won't catch all of them, of course. My point is that it is invalid to say that it won't catch anyone . > but at what cost? EXACTLY! The problem is that whoever controls the list of illegal material can abuse it. We fundamentally cannot audit the list becau…

"It won't catch all of them, of course. My point is that it is invalid to say that it won't catch anyone."

Sure, but wouldn't they quickly learn once people are getting caught?

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#405

Post by hollerith »

mapontosevenths wrote: post #390
hollerith wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Algerians hid within the population Yes, but we're discussing a civil war or revolution in the US, where the rebels or revolutionaries would be able to engage in terrorism and to hide within the population -- and where there are so many long guns in private hands that the defending force (the government) probably wouldn't be able to deprive the attacking force (the rebels) of long guns simply by punishing any ci…

My point is that it wasn't the guns that saved the Algerians. Knives, bayonets, and IEDs would have been equaly effective for the sort of guerilla tactics that eventually won the war.

I find it very unlikely that "knives, bayonets, and IEDs would have been equally effective". The ALN ambushed French convoys and patrols, raided isolated military outposts and police stations and defended themselves when their camps and zones were attacked. I doubt the ALN could have succeeded in those encounters even one tenth as often as they actually did if they had no access or much worse access to guns (with "success" meaning inflicting casualties on the occupier, avoiding taking casualties, capturing supplies (including guns) and disrupting the occupier's control).

There is a reason people say, "don't bring a knife to a gun fight".

The ALN got guns from donors and sympathizers in Egypt and other Arab countries. In later years, the Eastern Bloc and China also contributed supplies, including guns.

Was there a single significant war, rebellion or revolution in the last 100 years where both sides didn't have a gun for every fighter or almost that many guns? I'm not sure, but I doubt it.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#406

Post by drnick1 »

jansper39 wrote: post #386
txrx0000 wrote: post #287

Dear citizens of the EU: If this gets pushed through, you will gradually lose control of your government much like how the people of the UK already lost control of theirs. What are you going to do when the government's interests inevitably drift out of alignment with yours? Start a political movement? You will have the police knocking on your door for criticizing the establishment. Start a revolution? You have no wea…

>you will gradually lose control of your government much like how the people of the UK already lost control of theirs. As a UK citizen, can you explain your reasoning here? We haven't implemented anything like the chat control proposal and while a few politicians have brought up similar ideas, there is a lot of pushback against it.

Age verification, while trivial to bypass (for now), has brought you closer to further privacy-invading restrictions. Next, VPNs will be attacked. Then it will be unsigned apps on "untrusted" operating systems.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#407

Post by blaze33 »

palata wrote: post #356
blaze33 wrote: post #348

I regularly see similar articles with similar comments here, but there's one thing I still don't understand: From the European Convention on Human Rights[1]: ARTICLE 8 Right to respect for private and family life 1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence. 2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as i…

> what is the legal argument solid enough to justify interfering with everybody's right to privacy? "... except such as is in accordance with the law" And the "interfering" coming from ChatControl is that "some algorithm" locally scans and detects illegal material, and doesn't do anything if there is no illegal material. > Watching everyone's communications also seems at odds with the principle of proportionality It'…

I understand but frankly "doesn't do anything if there is no illegal material" reminds me too much of the old anti-privacy argument "nothing to hide, nothing to fear".

It is about control and purpose, "my OS watches my communications" is true but weird to say because there's an expectation, unless compromised, that the OS is under my control so no problem. A third-party controlling the local scan of all my data specifically to report whatever it wants is a huge problem.

Too often are some specific issues left insufficiently addressed for too long and it seems like the answer ends up like, ok we give up, here's some collective punishment, that should do the trick.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#408

Post by palata »

pests wrote: post #397
palata wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what is the legal argument solid enough to justify interfering with everybody's right to privacy? "... except such as is in accordance with the law" And the "interfering" coming from ChatControl is that "some algorithm" locally scans and detects illegal material, and doesn't do anything if there is no illegal material. > Watching everyone's communications also seems at odds with the principle of proportionality It'…

> Nobody would say that your OS is "watching your communications", right? No what? Everyone has been hating on the spying Microsoft has been doing in windows for years. How do you ask this with a straight face.

That's not what I meant.

Would you say that a minimal install of Linux or *BSD is "watching your communications"? It has to "read" your data in order to show them to you, but you wouldn't count this as "watching communications" or "surveillance". Siri running locally is not considered "surveillance".

The problem is when your data is exfiltrated, which is what you complain about with your Microsoft example. But again that's not what I meant.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#409

Post by Imustaskforhelp »

gameman144 wrote: post #90
Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think of constitution as a contract between the citizens and the state and the (judiciary?) Like, constitution both defines the rights of citizens and the limits of those rights and the same goes for the states. I feel as if the creators of constitutions think that it is a set of checks and balances... Just as if how a citizen violates something written in the constitution, the state can punish it. In the same mann…

> I concur (fancy word for believe which I wanted to share lol) you are talking about america. Just a heads up but concur means "agree", not "believe"

It was a grave tragedy and a miscalculation from my side.

An error that should be discussed for generations :sob: /jk

IN all fairness though, I don't know why I wrote concur, I just thought of it and thought it meant believe...

What would be a fancier word of believe if I may ask ya that you would suggest me to use..

Also I am sorry that I made a mistake tbh, I hope ya get it and thanks for correcting me!

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#410

Post by dmix »

jansper39 wrote: post #386
txrx0000 wrote: post #287

Dear citizens of the EU: If this gets pushed through, you will gradually lose control of your government much like how the people of the UK already lost control of theirs. What are you going to do when the government's interests inevitably drift out of alignment with yours? Start a political movement? You will have the police knocking on your door for criticizing the establishment. Start a revolution? You have no wea…

>you will gradually lose control of your government much like how the people of the UK already lost control of theirs. As a UK citizen, can you explain your reasoning here? We haven't implemented anything like the chat control proposal and while a few politicians have brought up similar ideas, there is a lot of pushback against it.

Two obvious ones come to mind, the UK age verification system laid the groundwork for internet IDs + ~12,000 people per year being arrested for online speech (a number that's grown exponentially) [1]. There's many other examples.

[1] https://factually.co/fact-checks/justice/uk-social-media-arr...

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