Live data from Hacker News

Why are there so many rationalist cults?

asteriskmag.com

401–410 of 947 posts

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting aside the reductio ad absurdum of genocide, this is an unfortunately common viewpoint. People really need to take into account the chances their child might wind up working on science or technology which reduces global CO2 emissions or even captures CO2. This reasoning can be applied to all sorts of naive "more people bad" arguments. I can't imagine where the world would be if Norman Borlaug's parents had dec…

It also entirely subjugates the economic realities that we (at least currently) live in to the future health of the planet. I care a great deal about the Earth and our environment, but the more I've learned about stuff the more I've realized that anyone advocating for focusing on one without considering the impact on the other is primarily following a religion

> It also entirely subjugates the economic realities that we...

To play devils advocate, you could be seen as trying to subjugate the worlds health to your own economic well-being, and far fewer people are concerned with your tax bracket than there are people on earth. In a pure democracy, I'm fairly certain the planets well being would be deemed more important than the economy of whatever nation you live in.

> advocating for focusing on one... is primarily following a religion

Maybe, but they could also just be doing the risk calculus a bit differently. If you are a many step thinker the long term fecundity of our species might feel more important than any level of short term financial motivation.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't the "fast&slow" thingy debunked as another piece of popscience?

The point remains. People are not 100 percent rational beings, never have been, never will be, and it's dangerous to assume that this could ever be the case. Just like any number of failed utopian political movements in history that assumed people could ultimately be molded and perfected.

Those of us who accept this limitation can often fail to grasp how much others perceive it as a profound attack on the self. To me, it is a basic humility - that no matter how much I learn, I cannot really transcend the time and place of my birth, the biology of my body, the quirks of my culture. Rationality, though, promises that transcendence, at least to some people. And look at all the trouble such delusion has caused, for example "presentism". Science fiction often introduces a hidden coordinate system, one of language and predicate, upon which reason can operate, but system itself did not come from reason, but rather a storyteller's aesthetic.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#403

This article is beautifully written, and it's full of proper original research. I'm sad that most comments so far are knee-jerk "lol rationalists" type responses. I haven't seen any comment yet that isn't already addressed in much more colour and nuance in the article itself.

I think it's perfectly fine to read these articles, think "definitely a cult" and ignore whether they believe in spaceships, or demons, or AGI.

The key takeaway from the article is that if you have a group leader who cuts you off from other people, that's a red flag – not really a novel, or unique, or situational insight.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#404
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel this way about some of the more extreme effective altruists. There is no room for uncertainty or recognition of the way that errors compound. - "We should focus our charitable endeavors on the problems that are most impactful, like eradicating preventable diseases in poor countries." Cool, I'm on board. - "I should do the job that makes the absolute most amount of money possible, like starting a crypto exchang…

The "longtermism" idea never made sense to me: So we should sacrifice the present to save the future. Alright. But then those future descendants would also have to sacrifice their present to save their future, etc. So by that logic, there could never be a time that was not full of misery. So then why do all of that stuff?

Well, there's a balance to be had. Do the most good you can while still being able to survive the rat race.

However, people are bad at that.

I'll give an interesting example.

Hybrid Cars. Modern proper HEVs[0] usually benefit to their owners, both by virtue of better fuel economy as well as in most cases being overall more reliable than a normal car.

And, they are better on CO2 emissions and lower our oil consumption.

And yet most carmakers as well as consumers have been very slow to adopt. On the consumer side we are finally to where we can have hybrid trucks that can get 36-40MPG capable of towing 4000 pounds or hauling over 1000 pounds in the bed [1] we have hybrid minivans capable of 35MPG for transporting groups of people, we have hybrid sedans getting 50+ and Small SUVs getting 35-40+MPG for people who need a more normal 'people' car. And while they are selling better it's insane that it took as long as it has to get here.

The main 'misery' you experience at that point, is that you're driving the same car as a lot of other people and it's not as exciting [2] as something with more power than most people know what to do with.

And hell, as they say in investing, sometimes the market can be irrational longer than you can stay solvent. E.x. was it truly worth it to Hydro-Quebec to sit on LiFePO patents the way they did vs just figuring out licensing terms that got them a little bit of money to then properly accelerate adoption of Hybrids/EVs/etc?

[0] - By this I mean Something like Toyota's HSD style setup used by Ford and Subaru, or Honda or Hyundai/Kia's setup where there's still a more normal transmission involved.

[1] - Ford advertises up to 1500 pounds, but I feel like the GVWR allows for a 25 pound driver at that point.

[2] - I feel like there's ways to make an exciting hybrid, but until there's a critical mass or Stellantis gets their act together, it won't happen...

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#405
> The Sequences make certain implicit promises. ...

Some meta-commentary first... How would one go about testing if this is true? If true, then such "promises" are not written down -- they are implied. So one would need to ask at least two questions: 1. Did the author intend to make these implicit promises? 2. What portion of readers perceive them as such?

> ... There is an art of thinking better ...

First, this isn't _implicit_ in the Sequences; it is stated directly. In any case, the quote does not constitute a promise: so far, it is a claim. And yes, rationalists do think there are better and worse ways of thinking, in the sense of "what are more effective ways of thinking that will help me accomplish my goals?"

> ..., and we’ve figured it out.

Codswallop. This is not a message of the rationality movement -- quite the opposite. We share what we've learned and why we believe it to be true, but we don't claim we've figured it all out. It is better to remain curious.

> If you learn it, you can solve all your problems...

Bollocks. This is not claimed implicitly or explicitly. Besides, some problems are intractable.

> ... become brilliant and hardworking and successful and happy ...

Rubbish.

> ..., and be one of the small elite shaping not only society but the entire future of humanity.

Bunk.

For those who haven't read it, I'll offer a relevant extended quote from Yudkowsky's 2009 "Go Forth and Create the Art!" [1], the last post of the Sequences:

## Excerpt from Go Forth and Create the Art

But those small pieces of rationality that I've set out... I hope... just maybe...

I suspect—you could even call it a guess—that there is a barrier to getting started, in this matter of rationality. Where by default, in the beginning, you don't have enough to build on. Indeed so little that you don't have a clue that more exists, that there is an Art to be found. And if you do begin to sense that more is possible—then you may just instantaneously go wrong. As David Stove observes—I'm not going to link it, because it deserves its own post—most "great thinkers" in philosophy, e.g. Hegel, are properly objects of pity. That's what happens by default to anyone who sets out to develop the art of thinking; they develop fake answers.

When you try to develop part of the human art of thinking... then you are doing something not too dissimilar to what I was doing over in Artificial Intelligence. You will be tempted by fake explanations of the mind, fake accounts of causality, mysterious holy words, and the amazing idea that solves everything.

It's not that the particular, epistemic, fake-detecting methods that I use, are so good for every particular problem; but they seem like they might be helpful for discriminating good and bad systems of thinking.

I hope that someone who learns the part of the Art that I've set down here, will not instantaneously and automatically go wrong, if they start asking themselves, "How should people think, in order to solve new problem X that I'm working on?" They will not immediately run away; they will not just make stuff up at random; they may be moved to consult the literature in experimental psychology; they will not automatically go into an affective death spiral around their Brilliant Idea; they will have some idea of what distinguishes a fake explanation from a real one. They will get a saving throw.

It's this sort of barrier, perhaps, which prevents people from beginning to develop an art of rationality, if they are not already rational.

And so instead they... go off and invent Freudian psychoanalysis. Or a new religion. Or something. That's what happens by default, when people start thinking about thinking.

I hope that the part of the Art I have set down, as incomplete as it may be, can surpass that preliminary barrier—give people a base to build on; give them an idea that an Art exists, and somewhat of how it ought to be developed; and give them at least a saving throw before they instantaneously go astray.

That's my dream—that this highly specialized-seeming art of answering confused questions, may be some of what is needed, in the very beginning, to go and complete the rest.

[1]: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/aFEsqd6ofwnkNqaXo/go-forth-a...

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

at least LOTR's lightweight fans watched the movies! Oh, there’s movies for lazy Rand fans, too. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0480239/ More of a Fountainhead fan, are you? Do ya like Gary Cooper and Patricia Neal? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041386/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk

> Oh, there’s movies for lazy Rand fans, too. tbf that comment was about 50% a joke about their poor performance at the box office :D

Rereading your comment, that’s my woosh moment for the day, I guess. :-)

Though a Gary Cooper The Fountainhead does tempt me on occasion. (Unlike Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead wasn’t horrible, but still some pretty poor writing.)

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#407
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know?

having known dozens of friends, family, roommates, coworkers etc both before and after they started them. The two biggest telltale signs - 1. tendency to produce - out of no necessity whatsoever, mind - walls of text. walls of speech will happen too but not everyone rambles. 2. Obnoxiously confident that they're fundamentally correct about whatever position they happen to be holding during a conversation with you. No…

Many people like to write in order to develop and explore their understanding of a topic. Writing lets you spend a lot of time playing around with whatever idea you're trying to understand, and sharing this writing invites others to challenge your assumptions.

When you're uncertain about a topic, you can explore it by writing a lot about said topic. Ideally, when you've finished exploring and studying a topic, you should be able to write a much more condensed / synthesized version.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#408
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know?

having known dozens of friends, family, roommates, coworkers etc both before and after they started them. The two biggest telltale signs - 1. tendency to produce - out of no necessity whatsoever, mind - walls of text. walls of speech will happen too but not everyone rambles. 2. Obnoxiously confident that they're fundamentally correct about whatever position they happen to be holding during a conversation with you. No…

I call this “diarrhea of the mind”. It’s what happens when you hear a steady stream of bullshit from someone’s mouth. It definitely tracks with substance abuse of “uppers”, aka meth, blow, hell even caffeine!

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#409
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s just (or even particularly) bad axioms, I think it’s that people tend to build up “logical” conclusions where they think each step is a watertight necessity that follows inevitably from its antecedents, but actually each step is a little bit leaky, leading to runaway growth in false confidence. Not that non-rationalists are any better at reasoning, but non-rationalists do at least benefit from some…

> Not that non-rationalists are any better at reasoning, but non-rationalists do at least benefit from some intellectual humility. Non-rationalists are forced to use their physical senses more often because they can't follow the chain of logic as far. This is to their advantage. Empiricism > rationalism.

That conclusion presupposes that rationality and empiricism are at odds or mutually incompatible somehow. Any rational position worth listening to, about any testable hypothesis, is hand in hand with empirical thinking.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#410
post #349

Granted, admitted from what little I've read on the outside, the "rational" part just seems to be mostly the writing style - this sort of dispassionate, eloquently worded prose that makes weird ideas seem more "rational" and logical than they really are.

Yes, they're not rational at all. They're just a San-Francisco/Bay area cult who use that word.
Post reply on HN