Earlier quoted context omitted.
Glad it somehow worked out for you. I find it very sad though that you felt somehow "guilty" (based on "selfish malformations in my personality and social skills"), which I would see as a toxic society pressure. Not sure how, since as long as I can remember I thought all people are different, so it's just about finding some that you like and that can also accept you. I don't want to force my quirks and preferences on…
Developmental prosopagnosia wasn't recognised as a "thing" before the late 2000s. Before that, everybody assumed that being able to recognise someone was just something everyone, well, did. Failure to recognise a friend or relative in the street was seen as an affront, or a deliberate snub. Failure to recognise famous people in films or on the TV was something to be ridiculed. Prosopagnosiacs quickly learn coping str…
Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels
401–410 of 537 posts
Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels
#402Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, but if you have it you need to compensate for it. It’s what calendars, reminders, todo’s etc etc are for. Speaking as one with a huge challenge in this space. No one is going to go “oh, you have ADHD, well, I guess you don’t need to fulfil that expectation…”
Which is why I use those tools extensively. I never said these people shouldn't try to compensate for any deficit, my point is that what people describe as "time blindness" is a real problem, and should not be so easily dismissed.
Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels
#403Earlier quoted context omitted.
>The feedback of reality will fix it, like for all young people. "A child who isn't disciplined at home, will be disciplined outside of the home" - old African proverb. The issue is kids growing up without being taught accountability, but instead that they're perpetual victims of "the system" created by evil old white men, and therefore nothing they do is ever their fault. This is the fault of the parents, school sys…
I've seen this kind of thing and it annoys me to no end. However that seems to be a small minority among many. But the majority of young adults are rightfully asking hard questions. Why should they suffer the consequences of political and corporate mismanagement ? Why is accountability rarely invoked when it comes to people in power? Why is it OK for old disgruntled people to yell at them for things they have nothing…
Who said they should? Nobody should ideally, but that's the way the world works: shit rolls downhill. And being a cheeky little shit at work, will not result in a revolutionary change at the top of corporations leadership the way you imagine, but will just result in your direct manager's career being at risk due to your behavior, so you're giving him no choice but to cut you because they're not gonna die on your hill for you. Cultural changes take a long time and need to involve 90%+ of the workforce, not just a few.
>Why is accountability rarely invoked when it comes to people in power?
You know why. Because the rules are made by those in power, and people choose to rise to power in order to make the rules by which others are held accountable.
That's why young people are engaging in the "lying flat" or quiet quitting movements, and voting outsiders of the establishment like Trump, Mamdani, etc. They want to flip the monopoly board over because they know they were dealt a shit hand. And while I'm not that young anymore, I totally support their movement.
Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels
#404Earlier quoted context omitted.
The word “disorder” is loaded, but it is interesting to also look through the lens of the Social Theory of Disability. For the rise in diagnoses for autism, ADD, gender dysphoria, eating disorders such as anorexia nervosa, bulimia etc. Just as we now view the historical labeling of women as suffering from “hysteria” as a systemic failure, not a personal pathology, we should interrogate whether current diagnostic regi…
> Generations identifying as trans: Is this surprising? 20 years ago in many parts of the world the only way to survive as a trans person was through prostitution. You would be forced to live as an outcast, far away from "normal people". There were barely any legal protections, you could often not change your legal sex, finding any information about what this is or its treatments (not a fetish, something that million…
Yes, one theory is that everything “just happens to be” innate from birth, and unchangeable, and we simply discover it later. This essentialist type of theory may in fact be the best one for extreme cases of any condition. But we have to be very careful applying essentialism across the board — is it true for even mild, increasinly widespread cases? Could we also not investigate the factors upstream of the issue? Not just before birth, but also in the environment, in the socialization, culture, economics, etc. And if we find factors that heavily seem to affect it, should we not consider trying to fix the problems upstream such that the “disorders” downstream become reduced in many cases?
In the case of gender dysphoria, and to a lesser extent of depression being caused by serotonin, is too politically charged to start with. Many extremely creative people we know were born biologically male - the Wachowskis, Justine who made redbean, etc. transitioned their identity. They are adults who make a decision to live in ways they feel are more authentic to themselves amid the current culture and technology and that is their choice, as it should be. But we have to be careful not to therefore say there are no major issues in society upstream of millions of people who are experiencing distressing conditions, and try to embrace and normalize those conditions as opposed to trying to reduce the incidence of them.
Let’s look rationally and scientifically at every other example with similar conditions but without the charged atmosphere, to get a feeling for what the Social Theory of Disability and similar approaches would say. The key is to think systemically, and to accept that an identity is socially constructed and reinforced, that people are nudged all the time by culture around them, while they and the people around them are coerced by economics into stable behaviors and arrangements that may lead to distress (eg both parents working for corporations and neglecting their children and parents, to afford the rent because they have been made to expect and enforce a certain level of decadent spending that their ancestors never afforded).
1. Obesity. Now, to be sure there have also been attempts, with varying degrees of success, to normalize being obese and even celebrating this condition and some encouraging others to embrace the lifestyle. Yet we know that there are real public health issues upstream of the condition, including but not limited to unprecedented processed sugar and starches in everything, high fructose corn syrup, overuse of antibiotics on factory farms etc. the reduction of minerals in our vegetables etc. in short massive changes on an industrial scale that affect millions of Americans.
Imagine we were to ignore this and simply be content with embracing obesity as a “identity” to be accepted and was always around, but finally people were willing to become their true selves, would be scientifically and socially derelict. It would also be defeatist and lazy from the point of view of public health and social reform, would it not? And yet there have been serious attempts to normalize the Big and Beautiful identity as something we should embrace have more of in USA. The thing is, both can be true: “fat shaming” can be bad, while simultaneously it also bad to not have a public health investigation for upstream causes of obesity — yes treating it as a disorder to be reduced.
2. Eating disorders like Anorexia Nervosa and Bulimia. On the surface, they share many characteristics with Gender Dysphoria, namely a distressing mismatch between the body you have and the identity of how you wish it to be and how you want to be perceived. In fact there have been entire industries promoting and enforcing body standards for their participants to enter and keep participating, such as fashion models and ballerinas etc. But in these cases when a person comes to the doctor and admits that they are indeed looking to be thinner, the doctor is told by their industry to so the opposite thing than in the case of gender dysphoria. The doctor does NOT tell them to embrace their anorexia as an identity, and modify their body, but instead tries to get them to how much of their identity is actually socially constructed by others around them, and this is true not just for young and impressionable kids but also adults. When it comes to eating disorders, or some issuss of body dysmorphia, the distressing body-rejecting condition is managed in a completely opposite different way, and it is considered correct to point out the social and economic factors.
In fact, human body modification has a rich history going back thousands of years, and using all kinds of technology available to tribes. Some tribes and cultures embrace it as an identity. (As one small example, lip disks in some African cultures.) The people who choose to practice these modifications may be embraced with a special status and identity. But we looking from the outside can clearly see the societal and cultural constructs behind nudging and reinforcing the identity. So what I am saying is, look systemically, when you analyze public health issues.
3. Clinical depression. Many people here on HN have experienced clinical depression and I remember they have insisted for years that people should just “let it go” and it’s “just how things are”, and medications like SSRIs are the only real way to manage it. Over a decade ago people said Tom Cruise was a dangerous idiot, after his interview with Matt Lauer where he warned against overprescribing amphetamines, opiates etc. to treat these conditions. But once again, while the pharma industry and our US society at large has normalized this sort of overdiagnosis, “medicalization and treatment” of conditions, it was not always the case.
In 2022 studies and meta-studies came out in reputable scientific and medical journals questioning the efficacy of SSRIs at all vs placebo, and throwing into question the whole theory of serotonin being the main factor behind depression, and whether or not it is really preventable or manageable through changes in lifestyle, diet, mindfulness. But again, perhaps far and away the biggest questions were not systemically investigated: what is it upstream in culture and economics that systemically causes more Americans to be clinically depressed?.
More to the point, teenage depression and suicidal ideation is extremely high. Almost as high in the wider teen population as it is in the trans community! (I was shocked at the statistics.) So if something distressing rises so much, then it absolutely behooves us to look at what changed in society upstream of them. For example, the rise of tiktok and instgram and other social media as used by teens, for their body image and other things. Surveillance capitalism pushing certain things not just to teens but all of us (outrage, clickbait, echo chambers, even adults are more tribak and angry than ever, thanks to algorithms). Notifications that pop up at any time and distract us.!Instead of having the political will to address these issues and incentives, we accept them as a normal part of life. We are about to accept AI and robots that way, letting the industry “disrupt” anything and everything about culture, and leaving out-of-work men and women to figure it out (wringing our hands about usage of opiates and antidepressants while pharma industries gladly generate steady recurring revenues).
3. ADHD. I would call it the modern “hysteria” except for boys instead of women. We know hysteria was just a lazy catch-all to medicate women downstream of societal issues. In 50-100 years we may say the same about ADHD, as we have done with lobotomies etc. Do you see where I am going with this? I will leave the rest as an exercise for the reader for the sake of space here.
4. Autoimmune disorders on the rise as microplastics build ip in our bodies, while clothing companies put it in our clothes and bottling companies put out metric tons into bottles we drink from, but we throw up our hands and say there’s nothing we can do. While our ancestors reused glass bottles and washed forks, we discard plastic forks shipped from somewhere, into a landfill. Day after day without a thought to the next generation. Species are plummeting. One third of arable land is desertified. Our generation is living on an ecological credit card, that our children would have to pay. But we are told to shut up and work. Embrace and medicalize the conditions. We really have no time to organize against this stuff anymore. (Maybe we will once AI takes out jobs?)
Whether it’s obesity, diabetes, autoimmune disorders, eating disorders, depression, autism, and yes gender dysphoria etc. we can just stop at theories that essentialize new types of identities or we can actually take a public health approach where we look at them as “disorders” (word use by OP) that we want to minimize by gradually changing society. Not just for kids, but especially for them.
Lest you think I am just pontificating without actual solutions, here are some:
1. Gradually phase in a UBI for all US Americans. This will increase their disposable income and let them purchase goods made by startups (good for YC) as well as corporations. Let the money trickle up into the economy and tax the corporations. Our country is untold trillions in debt, it’ll have to print trillions to service that debt. May as well be like Alaska and give the first hop to each citizen equally. Then increasingly tax the corporations and their AI / robots / automation, and use that to pay down the debt over 30 years — after it has helped everyday Americans! PS: Alaska has had among the lowest Gini index of all states since it started this.
2. Reduce the 40 hour workeweek protections to 30 hours, as some countries did, or even 20 hours. Free up people from the hamster wheel so they can spend more quality time with their children and elderly parents, rather than school administrators and nursing home attendants (and their AIs). Stop normalizing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzXze5Yza8
3. Gradually phase out factory farm practices, be more like Europe. Go after corporations that pollute. Make the corporations switch to using biodegradeable materials rather than plastics and forever chemicals, rather than trying to forcing individuals dat the end of the production line to do that.
4. Consider implementing public health programs in schools like John F Kennedy did, modeled on the La Sierra high school. Same with math and STEM. Shorten the school day and let kids run around. Let children climb trees like in Finland.
Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels
#405Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's an odd presumption there... It sounds like you're presuming those who put a label on themselves don't want to change themselves at all; one could also imagine that those who put a label on themselves want to change themselves most of all
Those who see and believe that there's a label to parts of them can easily believe that they're "helpless", and "that's just the way I am"
Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels
#406Decades ago in my first abnormal psych course, the prof warned us that there was an almost iron-clad law that students will immediately start self diagnosing themselves with “weak” versions of every disorder we learn about. In my years since then, it has absolutely held true and now is supercharged by a whole industry of TikTok self-diagnoses. But there are a few things we can learn from this: - if you give people th…
As people learn there's something gravely wrong with how they interact with others, struggle with social situations, etc. — and they validate that by observing enough "normal" people interacting or watch enough Hollywood entertainment depicting perfectly rehearsed conversations — in desperation, they seek a remedy in everything from personality systems ("everything must be labeled and explained") to psychiatric treatment just to cope with the lack of frequent, validating, normal interactions; and in many cases, aren't improving because of how isolated their lives have become.
This is something I've observed in my own life and in friends who share similar challenges.
Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels
#407On further thought, not sure if this would solve the problem or exacerbate it...
Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels
#408Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do or do not, there is no "try". If you know you have to leave home at 7:00 AM to avoid being late then just set an alarm at that time. When it goes off then walk out the door, even if you're in the middle of some other task. Like if you're brewing coffee then just unplug the machine and leave: no coffee for you today. Don't allow yourself the opportunity to get distracted. Simple.
Reminds me of my doctor who thought that adhd was not real and his solution to my issues was "just do it lmao"
Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels
#409Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Disciplined at home" is being a maybe not perpetual but victim of the system for something like 18 years though. I don't get where this idea that kids are coddled with comes from. They usually are not even allowed to wear the cloths they want or choose the food they want and get pushed around to silly extents. Kids almost never gets it their way.
In order to hold someone accountable for their actions you need to allow them a choice in the first place. Disallowing children from making choices is one way of protecting them from the consequences of a bad decision: by not allowing them to make it in the first place. That is what coddling is, protecting from the environment. Protecting them from the choice is just a more extreme version of shielding them from the…
I.e. not cleaning up toys from the floor. Staying up late. Wearing different colored socks. Playing or speaking too laud. What ever. The consequences of those are really complex or fuzzy and the threshold level for breaking the rules arbitrary.
Also the subset of "bad decisions" that maybe have some distant future bad consequence, i.e. eating too much ice cream, are even harder. Or all the 'none will like you if you do that' things you need to teach kids.
Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels
#410Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, calling depression a "disorder" sometimes misses the point entirely when despair is a logical response to how things are
I know where you're coming from, but despair is never the logical response. Whatever the situation is, it's better to do something about it, even if it's just to rage and call for help, rather than to quietly despair. Regardless of how bad things are, we still have hope, both as individuals and as a civilization.
My partner is disabled and her transplanted kidney is failing. She will, in the next year or two, need dialysis and then a kidney transplant. Her Medicaid will be cut. The hospital she goes to will be closed. Both as a result of a bill that just passed. The average kidney transplant out of pocket costs $250,000, and because her first transplant happened before she met me, my insurance will deny her coverage because it's a pre-existing condition. We are in the process of trying to move to a different location, get her a job while she's going through kidney failure (not easy since nobody wants to hire a sick person, and definitely not at a workload that would give them benefits), and I'm in the process of trying to move us out of the country (I'm a dual citizen, she is not, so that's holding things up).
At what point in that is despair not a logical emotion, even when we're doing something about it? What is illogical about being so overwhelmed with circumstances that it makes you question whether waking up tomorrow is a net positive or negative? Please explain.