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Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

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Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#401

Post by Nevermark »

piperswe wrote: post #349
lenkite wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are free to pay ~30% extra for your preferred customer experience. The rest of us can leverage discounted pricing. Customer Choice for the win! Also, thinking that all businesses will lock one in using friction and timewasting is not a rational argument. There are a lot of honest businesses there forced to pay the Apple Mafia's tax.

If businesses don't have to offer the more consumer friendly option, they won't offer it.

That’s an unsupportable claim.

If customers want to pay more for Apple to facilitate, there isn’t an incentive to not keep apps in the App Store too. If a company has other reasons not to be in Apple’s store, why should they be required to?

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#402

Post by fauigerzigerk »

_benton wrote: post #125
spogbiper wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if all you want is for your apps to come from Apple's store and your payments to go through Apple's system, you would simply continue to use only those options and allowing other people to have other options would not impact you. what you actually want is to force all developers to use Apple's distribution and payment systems, so that you can have every app and service from any provider delivered via your chosen mech…

Developers are not forced into using Apple's distribution and payment systems because there are a multitude of other competing devices (with a higher market share mind you) they can and do develop for. If users and developers prefer other systems they can simply use those.

This argument doesn't make sense. Many developers are de facto forced to distribute their apps on iOS. There are only two mobile platforms globally. Deciding not to support one of them would be economically (and in some cases functionally) unviable for a very large number of apps.

However, the counter argument that opening iOS to other stores and payment methods would not affect users who prefer the App Store is not necessarily true either. If developers can choose not to distribute via Apple's store to avoid restrictions that are unfavourable to their business model then users would no longer be able to buy those apps in the App Store.

This is the dilemma that needs to be solved.

One solution could be to adopt a rule similar to the one for social logins. If an app supports any social logins at all then it must also support Sign in with Apple. Unfortunately, adopting a similar rule for the App Store is a lot more complex.

If an app rejected by Apple is then not allowed to be installed via an alternative app store either, Apple would once again be able to veto apps for whatever reason they want. And if developers were free to set a any price they want for each store, they could effectively make the App Store unviable.

I still feel that there is a set of rules that could make this work. The complexity is unfortunate though.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#403

Post by DANmode »

Nevermark wrote: post #398
DidYaWipe wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really the most interesting thing I read in this screed, the rest of which seemed to be clueless BS like, "changes to App Store policies that will improve the state of the internet." No. Unlike Google, Meta, and Amazon, Apple is not a gatekeeper to the Internet. They are the gatekeeper to one thing: their own app store. It's tiresome to hear the same anti-"big-tech" hysteria aimed at Apple. They aren't a monopol…

Try shipping a web browser not based on Apple’s browser functionality on iOS. See how free of gatekeeping the internet is.

iOS is not the Internet anymore than Jitterbug is telephones.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#404

Post by wvh »

andrewinardeer wrote: post #20

I'm not an Apple enthusiast—my rarely used iPad mini is my only Apple device—but let me play devil’s advocate. If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? If my pitch is premium, high-speed hardware and intuitive software so user-…

It doesn't stop at Apple's ecosystem. It also allows Apple to regulate the choices and privacy of the people and companies using their products. There's hardware, software, and there is data. Trying to control other people's data and taking away their freedom of choice regarding their data and services used is the issue.

I don't own any Apple product, but I do admire occasionally how Apple tries to uphold the quality and security of their ecosystem, even as I principally disagree with the walled garden approach. I certainly hope Apple aspires to keep the quality of their hardware and software high. They should however never control user data or choice of third party services.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#405

Post by Digit-Al »

wilsonnb3 wrote: post #197
hbn wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing would change for you. If my apps are changing, yes it is changing for me. Right now I can manage all of my app subscriptions from the Subscriptions screen in the Settings app of my devices. If they open up to other payment methods, my subscriptions are no longer centralized, I have to give my credit card information to more parties of variable trustworthiness, I have to worry about subscription renewal poli…

I think those problems are largely also due to anti competitive and anti consumer behaviors. We need to craft legislation saying software vendors have to support some kind of standardized payment system with easy cancellation built in to it rather than relying on Apples good will.

Here in the UK we have something called Direct Debit, that is backed by the Direct Debit guarantee. All regular payments are made by DD and we can cancel a regular payment at any time just by contacting our bank. I can go into my banking app, review a list of all DD payments, and cancel any of them with just the press of a button. You should campaign to have that system in America.

I often find it strange that a country that is so advanced in many ways is so backwards when it comes to banking.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#406

Post by Nevermark »

surgical_fire wrote: post #381
JimDabell wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft had >90% of the desktop computer market share back then. Apple has <30% of the smartphone market share now.

While I am not a specialist on the matter, I don't think Antitrust regulations have anything to do with market share. It's whether you are engaging in anticompetitive behavior or not.

Market share is a commmon practical enabler of anti-competitive behavior. It’s leverage.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#407

Post by whstl »

robertlagrant wrote: post #396
whstl wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. I wish to take this away from you. To me this is completely fine, morally, philosophically and legally, and a lot of people seem to agree with me.

> a lot of people seem to agree with me Apple have over a billion iPhones out there I believe, and your phrasing of "it's all of us vs just you" is really inappropriate - both from an argumentation perspective and probably a fact perspective too.

This phrasing is not the good representation of what I mean at all.

And the fact that people have iPhones doesn't invalidate my assertion, also it doesn't affect my right to an opinion.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#408

Post by _benton »

saubeidl wrote: post #368
_benton wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What right does a company have to piggyback off of another company? Like think about this logically? Should a grocery store be forced to sell my products without receiving any of the profit? Can I force a cafe to let me serve customers on their premises without giving anything in return?

They're not piggybacking off another company if they use alternative distribution networks. Should the construction company that built the grocery store be able to take a cut off grocery profits and have a say in what the store is selling?

Depends on the contract between the grocery store and the construction company.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#409

Post by _benton »

whstl wrote: post #348
_benton wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What right does a company have to piggyback off of another company? Like think about this logically? Should a grocery store be forced to sell my products without receiving any of the profit? Can I force a cafe to let me serve customers on their premises without giving anything in return?

> What right does a company have to piggyback off of another company? Apple has no right to piggybacking off of another company's business. Therefore the 30% must go.

They aren't piggybacking, they provide the infrastructure, marketplace, and platform.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#410

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

rekoil wrote: post #380
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no technological reason for app developers to be restricted from using other payment processors But there is a customer experience reason. As an iOS user, I very much appreciate that I can ask Apple to cancel some bullshit subscription that used to otherwise try to lock me in behind a labyrinth of added friction and timewasting. Not every problem is technological.

I 100% agree with this. Apple should be allowed to put whatever restrictions they want on apps in the App Store. The problem is they don't allow apps to come from anywhere else, this is the core of the issue and what everything eventually comes down to. Make it possible for users to control their own app installation sources on the hardware they own, show them what is happening when they do so, that they are replacin…

One reason that I support alternative (non-Apple) app stores, is that it allows differentiation between mediocre and higher-Quality apps.

You can get your clothes from Target or Saks Fifth Avenue. For most folks, Target is fine, but there are people that insist on paying $30 for every pair of skivvies. I think that they should have that choice. If they can afford it, then let them eat cake (for the record, I tend to be a Costco type of guy, but have not regretted occasionally getting something from Saks).

Selfishly, I would like them to allow sideloads, because the App Store approval process has slowed to a crawl, lately, as well as APNS calls. I’m certain that’s because of thousands of AI-generated submissions. I think many of those submitters would much rather avoid the hoops they need to jump through, for the store.

But I doubt that Apple sees things that way. The secondary app stores are likely to make a lot of money, which they would miss.

The more damaging thing, however, is that Apple’s brand image could get corroded, and there’s a very good chance that they could be strongarmed into supporting side-loaded crapplets. I’m a bit cynical on this, myself. I feel that Apple has been doing a great job of damaging their own brand, in the past few years. I feel as if the quality of their internal engineering has declined precipitously.

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