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The $25k car is going extinct?

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Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#401

Post by cpursley »

mschuster91 wrote: post #381
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that affordable European models are disappearing. The average mid-range offering from, say, Volkswagen, has become quite surprisingly expensive. But this is why Chinese cars are taking over in Europe. Half the new cars I see are from Geely, BYD, Chery, etc. These average about 20,000-25,000 EUR new. My own opinion, having looked into the matter a bit, is that you'd have to be insane to buy a Volkswagen or B…

> If I were in the market for a new car, I wouldn't consider anything but a Chinese car. The problem with these are a few things: 1. service network. When something goes kaput with a VW, BMW, Mercedes, Ford, GM, Toyota and even Tesla, there's ample service stations available to get the car back up and running. With a Chinese manufacturer no one but car nerds has heard about? Good luck finding anyone willing to even t…

Your understanding of what’s happened with Chinese cars is 15 years out of date. They’re really good now, even better in some ways. And honestly, it’s just the push that the legacy car builders needed.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#402

Post by lostlogin »

dingaling wrote: post #240
slg wrote: post #199

I don't know why inflation is dismissed so quickly. The article lists the industry average price increase as 29.2% and the inflation value I got out of the US Bureau of Labor Statistics calculator[1] was 26.2%. So sure, "this isn’t just a case of inflation affecting the entire vehicle market" [emphasis mine], but it is mostly that. [1] - https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

Retail inflation is based on the prices of goods, including new cars. So it's pointless to compare car prices to inflation because they are part of the basis of the measure. Hence why they track closely.

> So it's pointless to compare car prices to inflation because they are part of the basis of the measure. Hence why they track closely.

What? So how do you use the CPI? To measure things no one ever buys?

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#403

Post by cpursley »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #328
whatevaa wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are disappearing in europe too. Emissions and other required by law equipment costs just as much on cheap car as it does on expensive one. At some point, cheap cars stop beinf cheap, just a bit cheaper but with way worse quality, so they stop making sense.

It's true that affordable European models are disappearing. The average mid-range offering from, say, Volkswagen, has become quite surprisingly expensive. But this is why Chinese cars are taking over in Europe. Half the new cars I see are from Geely, BYD, Chery, etc. These average about 20,000-25,000 EUR new. My own opinion, having looked into the matter a bit, is that you'd have to be insane to buy a Volkswagen or B…

I’d actually argue that it’s not the cost of Chinese cars but their actual offerings. Compared to the state of Chinese cars a decade ago their current product products are really interesting and offer features that European, American and other Asian models don’t. There’s a great channel called wheels boy on YouTube that’s worth checking out.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#404

Post by blacklion »

I cannot reply to each comment which mention "EU" or "Europe", so I write this one.

Why do you speak about EU/Europe as a whole? There is no such thing. I thought it is, but, now, when I moved to "Europe", I see that ti was illusion.

Prices are different across countries. Do you think Poland, Portugal and the Netherlands have same prices? HA! Compare prices in the Netherlands and its neighbor Belgium. I didn't compare prices for (new) cars, but I did for new motorcycles. Difference can be up to 20%. And it is two of three countries which are known as "Benelux", not two countries on different edges of EU.

Choice is difference between countries too, there are models which are present in one country and not in the orthers. Heck, even selection of a food is drastically different in two Lidls (two supermarkets of same chain) on different sides of Netherlands/Germany border in 10km vicinity!

Many people say that they see that almost all new cars they see are BYD & others — there is no BYD in Netherlands, for example. There is Lynk & Co (which is Volvo / Geely / Zeekr), and it's all of Chinese brands.

There is no such single entity as "Europe" or "EU". Different countries are very different in available goods, prices, taxes and regulations. Yes, there are global things, like GDPR or emission regulations (Euro 5/Euro 6), but still there are a plenty room for difference.

And even "single economic area" is illusion: you cannot simply register car or motorcycle bought in Portugal or Belgium in the Netherlands, you need to pay local VAT, local ecological taxes, etc. So no, there is no "lifehack to buy car or motorcycle in Belgium and save 20%.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#405

Post by CalRobert »

amelius wrote: post #368
rmnwski wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the more SUVs are driven, the less safe people feel (and arguably are), accelerating the need to buy an SUV for safety reasons.

On the other hand, if you kill someone in a traffic accident, you feel shit the rest of your life.

I’m not sure, a lot of people seem quick to blame children for “darting” in to the road instead of accepting responsibility for operating a dangerous machine.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#406

Post by LightBug1 »

BanterTrouble wrote: post #382

I work on my own cars now (as a hobby really) and one of the reasons the new cars are so expensive is they are much more complicated. A lot of this seems to be over-engineering IMO. This is alluded to in the article, but not explicitly stated. The cars I work on are from the early 90s and everything is very simple to understand. e.g. Electronics are normally simple circuits that aren't much more complicated than what…

Same ... I'm still running an early 2000's Toyota and got myself a VW Beetle 1969 just for the fun of it ... love maintaining them as they're so simple and rewarding and parts are cheap! ... And I can in no way be called a mechanic.

I've been lusting over the ioniq 5 for a couple of years but I'm just thinking, in 10 years time I'll be knee deep in your last paragraph ... I like long lasting cars

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#407

Post by lostlogin »

financypants wrote: post #148
SoftTalker wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buy the best used car you can afford for cash and forget all that dealership nonsense

The small and quasi-loophole to getting a good used car deal is buying a hail damage car. I genuinely don't understand why cars were made to have shiny paint. Cars drive on dirty roads with insects and pebbles abound. Paint doesn't matter. Car washes are crazy, except to abait rust

It’s a lot easier to clean a shiny surface than a matt one.

Try clean a house ceiling versus a house wall - though anyone sane wouldn’t paint a ceiling matt, or for that matter, even contemplate painting a ceiling.

Get a painter to paint it semi-gloss.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#408

Post by benjiro »

mxfh wrote: post #371
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that affordable European models are disappearing. The average mid-range offering from, say, Volkswagen, has become quite surprisingly expensive. But this is why Chinese cars are taking over in Europe. Half the new cars I see are from Geely, BYD, Chery, etc. These average about 20,000-25,000 EUR new. My own opinion, having looked into the matter a bit, is that you'd have to be insane to buy a Volkswagen or B…

Just because they are not heavily advertised, doesnt mean they don't exist. Dacia Sandero/Duster/Spring exist. (Renault) Citroen C1, Toyota Aygo, Peugeot 108, (VW up!.) Considering Volkswagen Group: With a choice of Skoda Fabia/Seat Ibiza/VW Polo you would go for Skoda or Seat, not the VW brand itself if you dont care about marque but price. But prestige is a huge factor still, so people would still go for an overpri…

> so 20k-equivalent from 2015-2019 is already above 25k just by inflation.

Its not inflation alone ... The same brand/car type, tends to have seen a 75% price increase over the mentioned periode.

Something that used to cost 20k euro in the 2015 periode, is now around 35k euro. That is not "inflation". An we are talking same trim, same electronics, same gasoline engines.

Cars beyond a few items (as long as we do not talk about jump from gas to electric) have really not changed that much. There was a big jump from the 90's to the 2000, in terms of electronics (and sensors that are the bane for most car mechanics).

Prices have gone up so much, that it resulted in my 15 year old second hand car, being sold now for more, then when i bought it (and that inc the increased km's driven and age). That is not a normal market and is not explained by simple "inflation".

Its part inflation, a large part greed, and do not forget the consolidation / lack of competition over the year. People overlook how many car brands are now part of the same group. This resulted in less competition because multiple "brands" increased prices over the same period, when its really the same company, using parts in between each other, and your mostly paying for a different shell and "brand name / past reputation".

That is why Chinese car makers are able to enter the EU market so easily, despite the market protection with import taxations.

If you can offer a true hybrid with all the trims like solar roof, full electronics, the works at 36k, and the next EU competitor for the same options is 48k (and a less efficient hybrid aka, electronic boost only)... And that included the import taxation.

Its ironic that we need to do market protection because our own brands got caught sleeping at the wheel.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#409

Post by lostlogin »

dagw wrote: post #309
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideally you should be driving the car until the wheels fall off anyways. Faffing about selling cars and buying newer ones is a waste of money.

Driving a car until the wheels fall off generally doesn't make financial sense. Keeping an old car on the road gets really expensive unless you have the space, time and skills to do all the work yourself. Then there is the opportunity cost of not having access to your car for days/weeks at a time while it is being repaired. Finally you have the stress of not being quite sure if your car will start when you turn the k…

Does a Toyota Corolla ever get unreliable or uneconomic to repair?

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#410

Post by cornholio »

amelius wrote: post #368
rmnwski wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the more SUVs are driven, the less safe people feel (and arguably are), accelerating the need to buy an SUV for safety reasons.

On the other hand, if you kill someone in a traffic accident, you feel shit the rest of your life.

The main point here is that it sounds a lot like a zero sum game, people are struggling to catch a bigger share of a limited "safety" pie while manufacturers instigating the mass war are watching their profits increase.

It's not clear at all to me how a crash involving two SUVs is much safer than, say, a 2 bike crash, and in fact there is a particular type of accident (front-overs of children) than trucks are strongly susceptible to and would never happen with lower mass / shorter vehicles. This all points towards a runaway tragedy of the commons that can be solved by limiting vehicle mass.

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