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Accountability Sinks

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Re: Accountability Sinks

#401

Post by satisfice »

jldugger wrote: post #251
satisfice wrote: post #24

I am deeply suspicious of "blameless" post mortems. I agree that we should work in ways that minimize fear. We should, to some degree, celebrate the learning we glean from our failures. But I keep seeing "blameless" being construed as lying about why something happened. It's construed in such as way that anyone can hide from their misdeeds. People screw up, and we need to hold them accountable, and THEY need to hold…

I'm nearly wrapping up Sydney Dekker's book _Just Culture_, and Allspaw has a few pages in it. And preceding that is a section titled "blame-free is not accountability-free." Accountability under Dekker's restorative justice model means providing a complete record of what happened, so the justice system can focus on who was harmed and who needs to repair that harm. In some ways I think they can end up mirroring the t…

I didn't mean that I couldn't imagine a punishment. I meant that I don't know think that "punishment" is meaningful as a tool to improve anyone's behavior.

Certainly it is a tool for deterring people from doing serious crimes. But it is a terrible tool for performance management of someone you hope will perform better.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#402

Post by [deleted] »

pyrale wrote: post #387
blueflow wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the perspective of the victims, it was not special, indeed. My "research" focused on the other perspective to learn social patterns.

Here are a few other genocides of the 20th century: the Armenian genocide [1], Porajmos [2], the Rwandan genocide [3]. Please enlighten us on how pointing similarities in the administrative involvement, the systemic nature of the targetting, the harnessing of technology, or the way individuals perpetrating it are made to feel less accountable is, in your words, "highly inappropriate". I honestly don't see how you cou…

[deleted]

Re: Accountability Sinks

#403

Post by jldugger »

satisfice wrote: post #401
jldugger wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm nearly wrapping up Sydney Dekker's book _Just Culture_, and Allspaw has a few pages in it. And preceding that is a section titled "blame-free is not accountability-free." Accountability under Dekker's restorative justice model means providing a complete record of what happened, so the justice system can focus on who was harmed and who needs to repair that harm. In some ways I think they can end up mirroring the t…

I didn't mean that I couldn't imagine a punishment. I meant that I don't know think that "punishment" is meaningful as a tool to improve anyone's behavior. Certainly it is a tool for deterring people from doing serious crimes. But it is a terrible tool for performance management of someone you hope will perform better.

I think there's a strain of management that thinks if you fire people who make mistakes the number of mistakes your team makes over time will decrease.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#404

Post by yerushalayim »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #304
ornornor wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TK is so heinous I will never ever fly them or go through IST ever again. I’ve been stranded 36 hours in IST, put in the shittiest hotel after queuing 3h for said hôtel and 3h again for a meal voucher that no restaurant accepts. And they just plainly ignored me when I demanded later they compensate us for the cancelations as per the aviation rules. They did the same when our lawyer got involved. I’ll never fly TK aga…

Problem is, if you start looking up reviews online, it might turn out that every single airline is about as garbage as everyone else. It's the case with telcos. My pet theory is that there's a kind of stable equilibrium there, with competing telcos all doing the same dirty tricks and being bad to customers in the same ways, and they don't care about losing business, because people don't suddenly stop needing mobile p…

Not accurate. Factually, some are much worse than others. A few are good to great. Lumping them all together as "garbage" is unjust and is totally counterproductive. Why even try when your efforts are unappreciated?

Re: Accountability Sinks

#405

Post by [deleted] »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #304
ornornor wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TK is so heinous I will never ever fly them or go through IST ever again. I’ve been stranded 36 hours in IST, put in the shittiest hotel after queuing 3h for said hôtel and 3h again for a meal voucher that no restaurant accepts. And they just plainly ignored me when I demanded later they compensate us for the cancelations as per the aviation rules. They did the same when our lawyer got involved. I’ll never fly TK aga…

Problem is, if you start looking up reviews online, it might turn out that every single airline is about as garbage as everyone else. It's the case with telcos. My pet theory is that there's a kind of stable equilibrium there, with competing telcos all doing the same dirty tricks and being bad to customers in the same ways, and they don't care about losing business, because people don't suddenly stop needing mobile p…

[deleted]

Re: Accountability Sinks

#406

Post by dostick »

rstuart4133 wrote: post #332
TeMPOraL wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is, if you start looking up reviews online, it might turn out that every single airline is about as garbage as everyone else. It's the case with telcos. My pet theory is that there's a kind of stable equilibrium there, with competing telcos all doing the same dirty tricks and being bad to customers in the same ways, and they don't care about losing business, because people don't suddenly stop needing mobile p…

> It's the case with telcos. Here in Australia the government owns the last mile (the government org is called the NBN), but you have to buy your connection off them through a retailer. Our biggest retailers predate that arrangement. They are exactly as you describe. They are expensive. Their customer service is complete crap, echoing all the complaints you see here. The small ones the NBN enabled are the reverse: ch…

Its never ends to surprise how Australian public is brainwashed by own government. It’s opposite in Australia, a monopoly of network providers with variety of “competitive” ISPs that have exactly same prices and services. And ISPs are basically billing companies and nothing else. Any network issues they forward to network provider.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#407

Post by rstuart4133 »

dostick wrote: post #406
rstuart4133 wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the case with telcos. Here in Australia the government owns the last mile (the government org is called the NBN), but you have to buy your connection off them through a retailer. Our biggest retailers predate that arrangement. They are exactly as you describe. They are expensive. Their customer service is complete crap, echoing all the complaints you see here. The small ones the NBN enabled are the reverse: ch…

Its never ends to surprise how Australian public is brainwashed by own government. It’s opposite in Australia, a monopoly of network providers with variety of “competitive” ISPs that have exactly same prices and services. And ISPs are basically billing companies and nothing else. Any network issues they forward to network provider.

> And ISPs are basically billing companies and nothing else.

For anybody reading this and thinking it looks reasonable, one outcome of having all these ISP is net neutrality isn't a problem in Australia.

ISP's used to often offer discounted services for certain traffic, like Netflix or traffic that originated in Australia. "Used to" because landline traffic is so cheap now I haven't seen a data limited landline plan in a long while. Charging differently depending on where bytes came from wasn't a problem precisely because there are so many ISP's to chose from. If you didn't like one, move to another. Download limits are still a thing on mobile data plans, so you still occasionally see it happen there.

Also, the NBN isn't technically a monopoly. Anyone is free to pay a third party to run fiber to their house. The NBN is a practical monopoly because it's very expensive to run a new fibre through kilometres of suburban footpaths, and it makes absolutely no sense when the NBN already has fibre in those footpaths and will supply any house beside it with a 1Gbps connection. However, it does make sense for business to run their own fibre because they usually aren't in the burb's (so it's cheap'ish) and don't want to share a line (privacy and predictable latencies), so they often do pay for parties a third part like VOCUS to run fibre to them.

Finally, even though the NBN is a practical monopoly on landline for households, there are competing technologies like 5G and starlink which everyone is free to use. In fact I'm using 5G right at home because I'm waiting for fibre. The reason they don't use it is these competing technologies are slower, have higher latencies, and are more expensive.

I'm not sure who is the brainwashed one here - the Australian public quite correctly understands the vast bulk of Australians have lots of choice on what to internet connection options they have available to them.

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