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The hidden cost of AI coding

terriblesoftware.org

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Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not a manager by the way, my previous comment was more of a devil’s advocate/hypothetical question. I leveled up because I practice mentoring others. But it still doesn’t make sense for the organization to hire juniors. Yes I realize someone has to. It’s especially true for managers who have an open req to fill because they need work done now . On the other hand, my one, only and hopefully last role in BigTech wh…

> a devil’s advocate/hypothetical question. Can I suggest you not do this? It's not a good way to communicate and more often than not causes arguing. I think it is the first sentence which does the framing, making it less clear that the second is a legitimate question and not a rhetorical one. (It very much reads as rhetorical) I'm not saying "don't ask questions." We should all be asking questions! If anything, we s…

Every company does this. You don’t invest in your future these days by investing in a pipeline of “talent” knowing that the average tenure of a software developer is 3 years and at any time an employee can leave.

You have processes that outlive people. Companies don’t care about society - they care about their bottom line. They aren’t there to make society as a whole better

If you want a society of well trained software engineers ready to work in corporate America, you support your public education system. Just like if you want a society that has universal healthcare, you put the onus on society and not corporate America.

My job is to do what’s best for the company as long as it is not illegal or unethical. My job is not to make society better. I got one open req. I want to hire the best person my budget allows

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a devil’s advocate/hypothetical question. Can I suggest you not do this? It's not a good way to communicate and more often than not causes arguing. I think it is the first sentence which does the framing, making it less clear that the second is a legitimate question and not a rhetorical one. (It very much reads as rhetorical) I'm not saying "don't ask questions." We should all be asking questions! If anything, we s…

Every company does this. You don’t invest in your future these days by investing in a pipeline of “talent” knowing that the average tenure of a software developer is 3 years and at any time an employee can leave. You have processes that outlive people. Companies don’t care about society - they care about their bottom line. They aren’t there to make society as a whole better If you want a society of well trained softw…

  >  You don’t invest in your future ... the average tenure of a software developer is 3 years and at any time an employee can leave.
Well this is a 2 stage problem and I think the response is bad for multiple reasons.

1) Tragedy of the Commons: If we all act like this, then no one gets invested in. If we all invest in our employees then when they leave another company gets the rewards. That's still true when "we" are the "other company". You still benefit regardless. Under the condition that most companies (or rather at least the big companies) collude in this way. They have good reason to as coalitions maximize utility for all parties involved.

2) Why the fuck are we training people and then tossing them away? We do this in many ways but the most obvious one is hiring a new dev and paying them more than the current devs. Guess what? That new dev needs to be trained and now your old devs are pissed that they aren't getting paid as much. So now you not only waste time and money onboarding someone new, you lose your experience.

  > Companies don’t care about society - they care about their bottom line
I'm telling you that this is dumb shortsighted thinking. This is a low order approximation. It is true under "spherical chicken in a vacuum" type of settings, but not in the real world. These are not mutually exclusive things. Remember how Ford paid his employees more and gave them time off? We're told that story as he needed customers. But there's a side benefit to that too. Not only are the workers happier and more productive (leading to fewer mistakes and costly accidents) but they're walking advertisements. There goes that Ford employee in his car, I wish I could be like them. Yes, it requires understanding abstraction and making future predictions to understand this rather straightforward logic, but we're programmers who spend all our days dealing with abstractions and trying to predict future events (i.e. how the damn thing will be used and especially used incorrectly).

  > My job is to do what’s best for the company as long as it is not illegal or unethical
Exactly!

I don't understand why you think we're in disagreement about this. Every single one of my points has come down to this. I've said it explicitly. My very first message stated that there were selfish reasons to do these things. The selfishness and foresight doesn't apply just to yourself.

  >  My job is not to make society better
Not always, but these are usually strongly correlated. There's 3 ways about it, right? If your job makes society better, awesome. If it is neutral, so be it. If it makes society worse, well you deserve hate because you're harming people. But the point of an economy is to align value with improving society, right? We don't have to get super philosophical here. There's many ways to improve society. Entertainment, a new widget, social action, cleaning shit, whatever. I'm not gonna judge here and pretend what's better and not.

But it is just a weird argument all together anyways. Your job isn't to make society better? Read that again. Your job isn't to make your life better? Certainly a paycheck makes your life better, right? I really hope it isn't making it worse. But we're social creatures too. Your job isn't to make your family's lives better? Your job isn't to make your friends' lives better? If it isn't to better yourself, your family, and your friends, then what the fuck are we even doing here? You have autonomy. And here's the fun part, if we care about our local groups and improve our local groups, this usually improves broader groups by extension. We're interconnected. I'm not saying you need to care about some dude on the opposite side of the country, but I sure as hope you don't think your job is to do harm. The "not illegal or unethical" part really is concerning. Frankly, I'd call doing harm unethical, even if it is small. It's more unethical to steal someone's wallet than to snatch a penny, but both are still unethical.

So I really don't get where you're trying to go with this. Because frankly, the selfish act improves society. It's just you have to consider that other people exist. If you're selfish and you model a world where you're alone, then yeah, maximize yourself at all costs. But when there are other agents in the world, the way to maximize your utility is through coalitions, through improving the group.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every company does this. You don’t invest in your future these days by investing in a pipeline of “talent” knowing that the average tenure of a software developer is 3 years and at any time an employee can leave. You have processes that outlive people. Companies don’t care about society - they care about their bottom line. They aren’t there to make society as a whole better If you want a society of well trained softw…

> You don’t invest in your future ... the average tenure of a software developer is 3 years and at any time an employee can leave. Well this is a 2 stage problem and I think the response is bad for multiple reasons. 1) Tragedy of the Commons: If we all act like this, then no one gets invested in. If we all invest in our employees then when they leave another company gets the rewards. That's still true when "we" are t…

I’m not saying it’s logical. I even said that as a hypothetical manager, I would fight for the junior to get paid market wages. But HR sets the budget. I have to work within the framework I have.

Yes I know it’s insane that a manager can’t get the budget to give raises. But can get one to hire someone new at prevailing market rates.

Given those are the facts, I had to aggressively job hop between 6 jobs between 2008-2020 to get the money I wanted after staying at my second job for nine years getting 3% raises.

Now at 50 on my 10th job, I can optimized for different things.

How are you going to convince HR or the PHB that their policies are insane? As a manager or a team lead, your job is to create processes to make developers interchangeable “resources”.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You likely don’t have a say in the matter, but you should have a junior developer. That’s where senior developers come from.

Why should I have a junior developer who is going to do negative work instead of poaching a mid developer who is probably underpaid since salary compression and inversion are real? As a manager, say I do hire a junior developer, invest time into them and they level up. I go to the HR department and tell them that they deserve a 30% raise to bring them inline with the other mid level developers. The HR department is g…

> The HR department is going to say that’s out of policy and then the developer jumps ship.

If you work for a company like this, you should jump ship.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Slave wages? Like the wages for a factory worker in 1918[1]? $1300 after adjusting for inflation. I think they were using “slave wages” as a non-literal relative term to the era. As you did. A hundred years before your example, the “slave wages” were actually slave wages. I think it’s fair to say a lot of gig workers, especially those with families, are having a very difficult time economically. I expect gig jobs l…

> I think it’s fair to say a lot of gig workers, especially those with families, are having a very difficult time economically. Great point. I wonder if this has to do with the current housing crisis and cost of utilities... Food has never been more affordable, in fact free with food banks and soup kitchens. But (IMHO) onerous zoning has really slowed down development and driven up prices. Another cost is it's pretty…

I suspect it has to do with a lot of things:

* Everything is more expensive. You say "food has never been more affordable" but I'll absolutely challenge that. Food banks and kitchens are heavily locale-dependent type resources, and are not distributed according to the needs of the populace, but rather according to the ability and willingness of given communities to sustain them.

* You skated right past the need for a smartphone, mentioning, then going on to cite libraries for some reason. This is just a non-solution to a gig worker who will receive jobs and report their status/completion via a smartphone while on the go, doing the work. Ergo to even begin gig work, one REQUIRES a smart phone WITH a data plan.

* And, again, the pay is shit. In my relatively wealthy area, a good Uber Eats driver can make about $13 to $16 an hour, which on it's face sounds okay for a job that requires basic smartphone literacy and a driver's license. But just think about that. For starters, more than half statistically is tips, which aren't guaranteed and are based on performance. A performance, mind, that is subject to dozens of factors entirely outside the control of the driver. Further, it requires the use of the driver's personal vehicle (or one they have access to anyway) which costs obviously fuel, but traveling so many miles so fast will also mean more frequent oil changes, more replacement parts, not to mention a STEEP increase in the odds of bodily injury on the part of the driver, and NONE of this is being handled by Uber. All of these costs and risks are being felt by the driver.

And that still leaves tons of expenses on the table: insurance for the vehicle, many drivers want to run multiple apps which can require the use of multiple phones and therefore multiple data plans, they need to keep their vehicles clean and tidy for cargo or even passengers, they need to be available at the peak times for orders in order to make any money at all, and even if they do ALL OF THAT right... they are not guaranteed any wage, at all. If they simply don't get orders, or refuse too many and have the systems shadowban them, or simply aren't in the right place, their entire "shift" as it were can be a net loss for them.

> I guess it just sucks sometimes because these issues are super hairy (shut down Uber, great, now you've just put everyone out of a job). "For every complex problem there is a solution which is clear, simple, and wrong."

The solution is I think quite simple here: Uber (and all the rest of these gig apps to be clear) should be paying these people a wage, and the people should be driving cars in a fleet owned by Uber. You know, like Taxi companies did. Taxi drivers made tips, sure, occasionally, but they were hourly employees like any other. If they got in a car accident, the company was insured for that, both for the car and the worker. The employees enjoyed at least some benefits, didn't need to maintain or clean their own cars, certainly didn't need to buy the cars, and showed up to a place, on a schedule, and did a job. Like was normal before the "gig economy."

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#407
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should I have a junior developer who is going to do negative work instead of poaching a mid developer who is probably underpaid since salary compression and inversion are real? As a manager, say I do hire a junior developer, invest time into them and they level up. I go to the HR department and tell them that they deserve a 30% raise to bring them inline with the other mid level developers. The HR department is g…

> The HR department is going to say that’s out of policy and then the developer jumps ship. If you work for a company like this, you should jump ship.

Most companies are like this. Even my n=1 experience at BigTech is that it is well known that you get more coming in at a certain level than you do when you get promoted to that level and it’s best to “boomerang”.

On an unrelated note: it’s also easier to get “promoted” to the next level by changing jobs and then coming back than it is to go through the internal promo process at the same BigTech company.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's stop pretending or denying it: most of us would delegate our work code to somebody else or something else if we could. Hard disagree, I get to hyperfocus on making magical things that surprise and delight me every day.

[flagged]

My work is the magical stuff, I don’t write much code outside of work, I don’t have time with two young kids.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#409

There's nothing stopping you from coding if you enjoy it. It's not like they have taken away your keyboard. I have found that AI frees me up to focus on the parts of coding I'm actually interested in, which is maybe 5-10% of the project. The rest is boiler plate, cargo-culted, Dockerfile, build system and bash environment variable passing circle of hell that I really could care less about. I care about certain things…

This. Frankly I don't want to spend 2 hours reading documentation just to find out some arcane incantation that gets the computer to do what I want it to do. The interesting part of programming to me is designing the logic. It's the 'this, then that, except when this' flow that I'm really interested in, not the search for some obscure library that has some function that will parse this csv. Llms are great for that, a…

> Frankly I don't want to spend 2 hours reading documentation just to find out some arcane incantation that gets the computer to do what I want it to do

Then you are just straight up not cut out to be a software developer

The existence of LLMs may reduce the need to slog through documentation, but it will not remove that need

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don’t invest in your future ... the average tenure of a software developer is 3 years and at any time an employee can leave. Well this is a 2 stage problem and I think the response is bad for multiple reasons. 1) Tragedy of the Commons: If we all act like this, then no one gets invested in. If we all invest in our employees then when they leave another company gets the rewards. That's still true when "we" are t…

I’m not saying it’s logical. I even said that as a hypothetical manager, I would fight for the junior to get paid market wages. But HR sets the budget. I have to work within the framework I have. Yes I know it’s insane that a manager can’t get the budget to give raises. But can get one to hire someone new at prevailing market rates. Given those are the facts, I had to aggressively job hop between 6 jobs between 2008-…

  > How are you going to convince HR or the PHB that their policies are insane?
The underlying issue at hand is much more widespread.

I'm not trying to play wack-a-mole here.

I'm trying to be infectious so that the knowledge becomes widespread. We had it before, so I don't think it is naive to think we can't have it again. It was considered "common sense" before, the question is why it was lost. Given your age I guess I should be asking you why we dropped the aforementioned cliques. It's weird how common "you get what you pay for" was and how now we act in opposition to the clique: buying the cheapest option and making it hard to determine quality.

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