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Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

bbc.com

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Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#401

Post by ustad »

andai wrote: post #322
Mistletoe wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the UK do? This will tell you what people should do because I’ve seen English teeth. > In England, approximately 10% of the population, or around 6 million people, receive fluoridated water, either naturally or through water fluoridation schemes, mainly in the West Midlands and the North East. Uh oh. I know it is better now but in 1978 a third of people in the UK didn’t have their natural teeth.

I was reading a while ago about populations that moved to England, and within 2 generations their teeth are messed up (the first gen of kids born is usually raised on the food of their original culture). You saw it too in Canada when the Inuit went on food stamps and went from eating mostly meat to mostly plants: their teeth went all over the place and full of holes within a single generation. We also saw that with t…

You’re right that dietary changes can impact health, but there are other factors at play. Stress from moving to a new country or experiencing forced dislocation can have serious effects on physical health, weakening the immune system and disrupting overall well-being. Along with this, shifting away from nature-based vocations to more sedentary lifestyles contributes to health decline. The increased consumption of sugar and alcohol also exacerbates dental and general health issues. So, it’s not just diet but a combination of stress, lifestyle changes, and modern substances that contribute to health problems in these populations.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#402

Post by username332211 »

jdminhbg wrote: post #309
frontfor wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is basically no one else has politicised this to the extent the US did. Pointing to how different countries solve it differently is missing the point completely.

"Well, whether it's better to fluoridate the water or not, ~half the world got the answer wrong. But the important thing is they didn't argue about it."

They do have a point. If you look at history, Americans do seem to have a bizarre habit of turning everything into a great controversy.

The British abolished slavery with a vote of parliament. The Russian emperor signed a decree, and freed the serfs. Compromised were made, compensation provided and people were made free. But for some reason, Americans felt the matter is important enough to start a civil war around it.

People complain about America being divided and both sides there being unable to compromise, but if anything, that's been the defining feature of the nation since it's creation. "Y'all should take a chill pill, this ain't that important" is a perfectly valid position to have.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#403

Post by vasco »

mcny wrote: post #395
vasco wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government can give out toothpaste in school, it doesn't need to add things to water. The inviolability or integrity of one's own body to me is more important than any of this. You have the right to decide what medication to be given to you with informed consent always, or you have no freedom. Otherwise the freedom argument collapses and you stop having reasons to allow abortions, or a bunch of other informed con…

Would you also ban iron in wheat flour?

I support the language here: https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/3-right-integrit...

Article 3 - Right to integrity of the person

1. Everyone has the right to respect for his or her physical and mental integrity.

2. In the fields of medicine and biology, the following must be respected in particular:

(a) the free and informed consent of the person concerned, according to the procedures laid down by law;

(b) the prohibition of eugenic practices, in particular those aiming at the selection of persons;

(c) the prohibition on making the human body and its parts as such a source of financial gain;

(d) the prohibition of the reproductive cloning of human beings.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#404

Post by AndrewSwift »

abxyz wrote: post #382
AndrewSwift wrote: post #368

People who want to remove fluoride from the water should visit countries where fluoride is not added and look at people's teeth. I live in France and it's just so obvious that people grew up without fluoride — even celebrities try to talk without showing their teeth when they're on TV! I'm all for getting consent in most cases, but sometimes you'd have to be an idiot not to take the obvious win. It's like we were del…

You're misattributing: the U.S. has a perfect white teeth culture that doesn't exist elsewhere. Many people outside of the U.S. have healthier but uglier teeth. Fluoride isn't the reason for good/bad teeth inside/outside of the U.S, it's cultural. Many places outside of the U.S. do put fluoride in their water (nationally or regionally) and have "bad" teeth (e.g: England).

What does a white-tooth culture look like specifically? People brush their teeth in France, they have modern dentristy etc.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#405

Post by ghuroo1 »

attila-lendvai wrote: post #380
chucky_z wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main study I can find referenced to this was based in China where levels of flouride in water appear to be much higher than in the US. Even the study itself calls out 'low-flouride' vs 'high-flouride.' Not 'no flouride.' Utah is going to have a dental crisis in a few years, as there already too few dentists.

reality check: europe never had fluoride in the water. still looking for the dental crisis.

most people’s teeth in europe do not look great.. specially when compared to north americans.

from my experience, only people who are serious about their mouth health and go to the dentist at least twice a year, seem to have healthy and good looking teeth.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#406

Post by wqaatwt »

mcny wrote: post #395
vasco wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government can give out toothpaste in school, it doesn't need to add things to water. The inviolability or integrity of one's own body to me is more important than any of this. You have the right to decide what medication to be given to you with informed consent always, or you have no freedom. Otherwise the freedom argument collapses and you stop having reasons to allow abortions, or a bunch of other informed con…

Would you also ban iron in wheat flour?

You can presumably buy a different brand of flour or find a different source quite easily? Same applies to most other “fortified” products. With water your’e basically forced to waste money on bottled water or very expensive filtration systems.

But yes, adding additional vitamins or minerals to food products is generally unnecessary when supplements are generally cheap and highly available these days.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#407

Post by verisimi »

danparsonson wrote: post #379
verisimi wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, vitamins, micro doses of aspirin, and other low level medical treatments should also be added to water, for the benefit of the silent poor and sick.

The trouble with slippery slopes is that they carry you away from productive discussion.

One man's slippery slope, is another man's exploration of an idea. I don't think exploring widely is unproductive.

I could also say, that discussing slippery slopes (a linguistic discussion) is itself what moves the discussion too far from the original topic. You protest too much.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#408

Post by danielscrubs »

bsza wrote: post #324
jdminhbg wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I love about this comment is that one person thought "of course every other country just does the right thing when the US doesn't" and posted it, and then a bunch of other people thought "of course every other country just does the right thing when the US doesn't" and upvoted it, and not a single one of them thought to check what the "right thing" is. Meanwhile, back here on Earth-1, there's no right thing, and…

While I acknowledge it is not a "solved" issue, I find it bizarre nonetheless, simply because it is so disproportionately low-stakes compared to the amount of controversy around it. Increased risk of cavities versus tentative evidence of losing 1-2 IQ points at 1.5 mg/L? Sounds like a Monty Python sketch to me that people would get so worked up over this.

To straw man, you could argue that 1-2 IQ extra might have a large affect on the salary as everything is relative. If you are on the lower IQ scale, a ten point reduction would double your likelihood of doing crime.

I put in a spelling error in the above paragraph of 215 characters, you still understand it but what was your perception of me from this very small error?

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#409

Post by wqaatwt »

AndrewSwift wrote: post #368

People who want to remove fluoride from the water should visit countries where fluoride is not added and look at people's teeth. I live in France and it's just so obvious that people grew up without fluoride — even celebrities try to talk without showing their teeth when they're on TV! I'm all for getting consent in most cases, but sometimes you'd have to be an idiot not to take the obvious win. It's like we were del…

> even celebrities try to talk without showing their teeth

So fluoride would somehow magically replace braces or teeth whiteners?

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#410

Post by attila-lendvai »

_heimdall wrote: post #249
nozzlegear wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A less cynical framing is that the US is a much different culture from European countries, and is massively larger in scale. Depending on the problem, some of their solutions simply can't or don't apply.

There shouldn't be a scale issue with regards to fluoride in the water. It is either scientifically shown to be beneficial or it isn't, scale and geography likely have nothing to do with it.

a decades long study with a gazillion of potential confounders is never "either scientifically shown to be beneficial or it isn't"...

let alone the precautionary principle in a complex system with a gazillion variables... (i.e. things we don't know we don't know)

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