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Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#401

Post by sliken »

nolist_policy wrote: post #61
cogman10 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can get similar bandwidth with server boards Could be wrong, but I don't think you can. The bandwidth limit, AFAIK, is a problem with the DDR5 spec. These soldered solutions can go faster specifically because they aren't DDR5.

Desktop platforms only have 2 memory channels, amd's latest Epyc servers have 12 channels per socket . Strix Halo has 4 channels.

Please don't misused channels. In DDR4 1 channel was 64 bits. In DDR5 1 channel is 32 bits. So a 128 bit wide DDR4 system had 2 channels, but a 128 bit wide DDR5 system has 4 channels.

The latest AMD server is 12 DIMMS wide, but has 24 channels of DDR5.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#402

Post by sliken »

dragonwriter wrote: post #36
sunshowers wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no other way to get 256 GB/s of memory bandwidth for this cheap, and that's quite valuable in many workloads. I'm curious to get one for compiling code too. You can get similar bandwidth with server boards that cost 5-10x as much, or with a Mac Studio that costs 2.5x as much.

Or the NVidia Project DIGITS device at 1.5x the cost, but, also Q2 2025 instead of Q3.

But no published memory bandwidth.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#403

Post by aitchnyu »

abound wrote: post #235
te-x wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still a modular computer, just not a laptop. It's more like if Tesla made an electric scooter

The soldered RAM is surprising for Framework, and doubly surprising for being so in a form-factor that usually doesn't have soldered RAM. Similar to what other commenters have expressed, it just seems like they shouldn't have built this product if they couldn't figure out the soldered RAM bit.

Apparently LPCAMM2 (brand new upgradable RAM) modules wont support 256 bits width soon.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#404

Post by sliken »

ozaiworld wrote: post #44

Soldered memory and no x16 PCIe slot on a desktop are interesting choices. Not sure who the target market is. Seems like the interconnect between boards is also pretty slow compared to Nvidia Digits or even thunderbolt 5.

It's got a rtx 4070 laptop chip equivalent on chip, so most are not going to need more GPU or anything else that needs a x16 PCIe. Looks pretty nice for a small PC that's quiet, energy efficient, and don't flinch if you try to run something 3D intensive.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#405

Post by yonatan8070 »

tomnipotent wrote: post #189
yonatan8070 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really want to get a Framework to replace my aging IdeaPad, but they don't ship to my region yet. I was planning on ordering the 7840U version to where I'm staying in a trip to the US, but now it feels a bit of a let down to order a last-gen model since the new one might not arrive in time for my trip in mid-April.

Have you considered looking into a personal freight forwarder? I used these a few times while traveling through Europe.

I looked into it, but Framework explicitly states that they will cancel orders to freight forwarding addresses.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#406

Post by sliken »

mywittyname wrote: post #76

Why this over a traditional ATX work station? The article even points out the motherboard will fit in an ATX case, so size doesn't seem to be the major selling point. For gaming specifically, so many micro ATX motherboards offer Gen 5 PCIe, which can handle a proper video card, double the RAM, and the smaller cases are only slightly larger than this Framework.

Small, quiet, and more energy efficient is a good start.

I also saw that while it competed well with a 4070 at average frame rates, that the 1% lows were twice as fast. The speculation I saw was that the 12GB vram limit was causing issues on the Nvidia side.

Having twice the bandwidth, dynamically allocated VRAM, and very decent cores seems like a solid workhouse that it's more about better worst case performance (when you are heavily cache missing or running out of vram).

Sure some will buy a top of the line CPU from Intel or AMD, buy a larger case, and buy a RTX 5080 or 5090, for the 98% of the rest this strix halo will be plenty and will use less power, create less noise, and generate less heat.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#408

Post by sliken »

ein0p wrote: post #284
jsheard wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With what memory bandwidth? 256GB/sec, so roughly M4 Pro throughput.

What's frustrating is there's no real reason why regular DDR5 can't reach 1TB/sec with a sufficient number of channels. The manufacturers are just holding it back to drip feed that memory bandwidth over several generations. Except for Apple, which lets you have 800GB/sec now, and will let you have 1TB/sec+ in M5 Ultra next year. It's $$$$, but still - the true alternatives are much less cost effective.

Right, like the mac studio ultra.

Or a dual socket AMD Turin.

Or a grace+hopper (assuming you offload to the hopper).

Latency is dictated by the laws of physics, more bandwidth is easy, but not cheap.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#409

Post by sliken »

jackbravo wrote: post #21
lytedev wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to be squaring up directly against the mac studio with its efficient APU and big memory bandwidth use cases with a cheaper price tag. At least that's the loose sense that I got based on their keynote.

Nvidia project Digits seems to fall in a similar category, no?

Yes, very, but so far they haven't mentioned the memory bandwidth.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#410

Post by MisterKent »

forevernoob wrote: post #167
coldpie wrote: post #22

Two other Framework announcements: New 12-inch laptop form factor with 360 degree hinge (ie "tablet mode") and a touchscreen. No price announced, but it is aimed at students: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/02/frameworks-laptop-12... New mainboard upgrade options for Framework 13 models: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/02/framework-gives-its-...

> ...the first Framework Laptop 12 motherboard is going to use Intel's 13th-generation Core i3 and i5 processors I _really_ hope they launch an AMD version (perhaps with an iGPU) soon after that. That and preferably with Libreboot support. This would make it the ideal portable laptop for me and thus I'd be able to (finally!) replace my X220T.

I am a fan of open source and being able to tinker etc. But I've never felt the need (advantage?) to do more than just use the bios/efi to boot or configure a few basics.

I've been burned by a small SBC that had poor support, but on laptops/desktops never felt limited.

But people always sound so excited to libreboot their personal computer... Am I missing out or is it just nerd cred?

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