TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users • Hacker News Board

Re: TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users

#401

Post by quotemstr » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 8:13 PM UTC

quasse wrote: post #267

hcurtiss wrote: post #224

By saying China's using Tik Tok to subvert "democracy," aren't we really saying voters are not individual agents but rather a mob subject to manipulation by propaganda? I sometimes cannot believe it's those who so loudly cry about threats to "democracy" that simultaneously take such a cynical view of the democratic process. Rather than tackle the narratives substantively, they'd argue about who gets to manipulate the…

> voters are not individual agents but rather a mob subject to manipulation by propaganda Who is even saying this is not true? The United States government is more aware than maybe anyone else that influencing human opinion and action is a statistical problem once you have enough scale. Just look at the history of the USIA [1] and its successor the USICA. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Information_Ag…

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Re: TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users

#402

Post by regularization » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 8:13 PM UTC

aredox wrote: post #362

hcurtiss wrote: post #224

By saying China's using Tik Tok to subvert "democracy," aren't we really saying voters are not individual agents but rather a mob subject to manipulation by propaganda? I sometimes cannot believe it's those who so loudly cry about threats to "democracy" that simultaneously take such a cynical view of the democratic process. Rather than tackle the narratives substantively, they'd argue about who gets to manipulate the…

Yes. This is well known since Antiquity when the Athenian Democracy voted to condemn Plato to death. Read more about the period and you will see that the Democratic cities of yore, Athens first and foremost, often swinged towards taking bad decisions, and that a whole corporation of "sophists" manipulated public opinion without shame (read e.g. Gorgias ). The great progress that enabled the restoration, extention and…

Qhat you doesn't make much sense, starting with your claim Plato was sentenced to death by Athenian democracy, which there is no evidence of that I know of.

Re: TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users

#403

Post by Salgat » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 8:14 PM UTC

hcurtiss wrote: post #224

By saying China's using Tik Tok to subvert "democracy," aren't we really saying voters are not individual agents but rather a mob subject to manipulation by propaganda? I sometimes cannot believe it's those who so loudly cry about threats to "democracy" that simultaneously take such a cynical view of the democratic process. Rather than tackle the narratives substantively, they'd argue about who gets to manipulate the…

This sounds like an emotional appeal rather than anything based on science and fact.

Re: TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users

#404

Post by SubGenius » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 8:15 PM UTC

aredox wrote: post #362

hcurtiss wrote: post #224

By saying China's using Tik Tok to subvert "democracy," aren't we really saying voters are not individual agents but rather a mob subject to manipulation by propaganda? I sometimes cannot believe it's those who so loudly cry about threats to "democracy" that simultaneously take such a cynical view of the democratic process. Rather than tackle the narratives substantively, they'd argue about who gets to manipulate the…

Yes. This is well known since Antiquity when the Athenian Democracy voted to condemn Plato to death. Read more about the period and you will see that the Democratic cities of yore, Athens first and foremost, often swinged towards taking bad decisions, and that a whole corporation of "sophists" manipulated public opinion without shame (read e.g. Gorgias ). The great progress that enabled the restoration, extention and…

> ...when the Athenian Democracy voted to condemn Plato to death.

That was Socrates, not Plato.

Socrates was allowed to choose his own punishment too, so he wasn't exactly condemned to death right away. He also had the opportunity to escape prison. He chose not to.

Re: TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users

#405

Post by BitterCritter » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 8:15 PM UTC

Gormo wrote: post #254

mrkramer wrote: post #53

I would like to ask Chinese president Xi Jinping when will Google and Facebook be available in China and all the rest of the Western social apps. Can I get any clarity and assurance? Thanks.

Reminds me of the ultimatum I gave my dog last week: I told him that if he didn't stop pooping on the floor, I would punish him by pooping on the floor myself.

I think that’s a bad metaphor, though I don’t particularly know what you’re trying to say.

Re: TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users

#406

Post by leptons » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 8:16 PM UTC

Buttons840 wrote: post #45

The TikTok debate has always been about the balance between national security and free speech. We found a compromise. TikTok will remain, all of its national security risks will remain. Also, the law that tramples free speech is upheld by the court, but will be blantently ignored and unenforced. Everybody loses. This outcome is worse than anyone could have conceived.

>Also, the law that tramples free speech

I'm not sure how so many people misunderstand the difference between "free speech" and "app controlled by hostile foreign government".

The people speaking on TikTok have not lost their right to free speech, they still are free to use a multitude of other channels that amplify their speech. No speech was blocked, only the app controlled by a hostile foreign government was blocked, and there are no provisions in a any legal framework that says we can't stop a hostile foreign government from controlling what people in this country see.

Re: TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users

#407

Post by philipov » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 8:16 PM UTC

aredox wrote: post #362

hcurtiss wrote: post #224

By saying China's using Tik Tok to subvert "democracy," aren't we really saying voters are not individual agents but rather a mob subject to manipulation by propaganda? I sometimes cannot believe it's those who so loudly cry about threats to "democracy" that simultaneously take such a cynical view of the democratic process. Rather than tackle the narratives substantively, they'd argue about who gets to manipulate the…

Yes. This is well known since Antiquity when the Athenian Democracy voted to condemn Plato to death. Read more about the period and you will see that the Democratic cities of yore, Athens first and foremost, often swinged towards taking bad decisions, and that a whole corporation of "sophists" manipulated public opinion without shame (read e.g. Gorgias ). The great progress that enabled the restoration, extention and…

The one condemned to death was Socrates. Kind of weird for that to be the detail you get wrong…

Re: TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users

#408

Post by rib3ye » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 8:16 PM UTC

Buttons840 wrote: post #45

The TikTok debate has always been about the balance between national security and free speech. We found a compromise. TikTok will remain, all of its national security risks will remain. Also, the law that tramples free speech is upheld by the court, but will be blantently ignored and unenforced. Everybody loses. This outcome is worse than anyone could have conceived.

I just don’t get how free speech translates as accessibility to post on a commercial platform.

Re: TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users

#409

Post by FrustratedMonky » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 8:16 PM UTC

hcurtiss wrote: post #224

By saying China's using Tik Tok to subvert "democracy," aren't we really saying voters are not individual agents but rather a mob subject to manipulation by propaganda? I sometimes cannot believe it's those who so loudly cry about threats to "democracy" that simultaneously take such a cynical view of the democratic process. Rather than tackle the narratives substantively, they'd argue about who gets to manipulate the…

"a mob subject to manipulation by propaganda"

Yes, that is correct.

Re: TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users

#410

Post by simonsarris » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 8:17 PM UTC

hcurtiss wrote: post #224

By saying China's using Tik Tok to subvert "democracy," aren't we really saying voters are not individual agents but rather a mob subject to manipulation by propaganda? I sometimes cannot believe it's those who so loudly cry about threats to "democracy" that simultaneously take such a cynical view of the democratic process. Rather than tackle the narratives substantively, they'd argue about who gets to manipulate the…

> aren't we really saying voters are not individual agents but rather a mob subject to manipulation by propaganda?

Like we've been saying since the founding of the country? yeah

"The body of people ... do not possess the discernment and stability necessary for systematic government. To deny that they are frequently led into the grossest errors by misinformation and passion, would be a flattery which their own good sense must despise." -Hamilton

The founders did not think that electoral college was a good idea, senators should be appointed and not elected, and only a few citizens should be able to vote generally, because they were feeling mean. They did so because they thought these things and the act of voting itself were simply instruments to produce good government. They rejected a democracy, and favored a republic, for this reason.