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Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

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Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#401

Post by nox101 »

nox101 wrote: post #279
pas wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, people moving away is not new and not surprising, and happens all over the world, it's basically the main driver of urbanization. What's new was (rich) people moving "back" (to suburbs for the American Dream, and nowadays to have kids). Though it's better than what used to happen - which was lots of kids, and high infant mortality, plus poverty driving kids to find jobs in cities, where bad living conditions and…

>The good news is that we have the social technology of ... affordable safe high density cities, with parks and high-rises (plus the obligatory blackjack and hookers too!) ... where people can be next to their new and old friends at the same time ... oh my! No such cities exist in the USA

You have no idea what a "safe" high density city is "where people can be next to their new and old friends" if you think any of the cities you named meet either of those criteria.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#402

Post by moosey »

rayiner wrote: post #399
derefr wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Americans are motivated to move out of the small town they were born in, it's often because that "small town" is a dying and depopulated hollow shell full of awful, racist, jobless, drug-addicted idiots who are mostly only surviving off of some kind of long-term disability insurance. Often, with these kinds of places, they aren't a place your family has lived for generations, and nor are they a place you have th…

[flagged]

I love living in small towns. Truly, I do. I lived in towns ranging from 2k to 10k, and like 90% of it is great.

But avoiding police is essential for people like me who even have slightly more melanin in their skin than the usual amount. There are certain stores I learn not to use, and I have to learn the locals too avoid in each one I live. The number of times that I'm treated well but that I'm somehow unique in my imagined racial group is unusually high.

And I want to be clear, this isn't just in "white" communities in the Midwest, but other cultures/"races" too. I don't fit in with any because I fall into the mythical "mixed race" category.

This is truly a sad social construct that I wish would die already, but yes, it's often part of the cultural nature of such places. Holding these beliefs often leads to people holding the view that their problems are caused by some external force that they can never overcome, and they end up trapped in places with low economic opportunity.

So yes, racist. And I'm not limiting this to one race or culture. It's sadly a common part of the places where I most want to live and will never fit in.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#403

Post by Ray20 »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #234
grumpy-de-sre wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to blame the decline of organized religion, but it curiously coincides with the same time-frame in which the car was invented and modern suburbia sprung up. Having to move to allow for a family is definitely a new and worrying phenomenon. My gut feel is that having to maintain close family ties and living with parents until adulthood are an adaption to poverty, poor social mobility, and low trust society. P…

I suspect close family ties and living with parents was the default throughout human prehistory. Our Hunter-gatherer ancestors were probably not leaving their tribe behind and moving away. It's only since the industrial revolution that people have been leaving their birth family behind en mass.

>Our Hunter-gatherer ancestors were probably not leaving their tribe behind and moving away.

It is like literally what they did - more than ever after and before.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#404

Post by mlinhares »

vel0city wrote: post #339
mlinhares wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't want this, they've been made to want this because that's what society expects out of them, due to how public transportation in this country sucks everywhere and the infrastructure in big cities is a joke. Worse, having kids in such places is terrible as childcare is expensive, there are few parks or things to do with kids that don't require you to pay for it, and the city itself isn't made for kids on str…

These people can vote against this kind of zoning and can vote for transit and densification. But instead they show up in droves to city council meetings to fight against it as much as they can. They keep choosing to move further outwards once public transit expands and "the wrong people" start moving in. They complain about the neighborhood "losing its character". You've got your head in the sand if you think these…

They do exist, but they don’t exist in a vacuum, it’s decades of carbrained policies to get people to believe this is the only way to live.

And the cities that do have good public transportation (by US standards) like NYC are letting it rot, thus convincing people even more this can’t possibly work.

Also, people voting against their own interests is basically America for most of its time. They’ll continue to vote for restrictive zoning and then complain they can’t do shit and live alone and can’t make friends

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#405

Post by joelwilliamson »

grumpy-de-sre wrote: post #226
pas wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, people moving away is not new and not surprising, and happens all over the world, it's basically the main driver of urbanization. What's new was (rich) people moving "back" (to suburbs for the American Dream, and nowadays to have kids). Though it's better than what used to happen - which was lots of kids, and high infant mortality, plus poverty driving kids to find jobs in cities, where bad living conditions and…

It's easy to blame the decline of organized religion, but it curiously coincides with the same time-frame in which the car was invented and modern suburbia sprung up. Having to move to allow for a family is definitely a new and worrying phenomenon. My gut feel is that having to maintain close family ties and living with parents until adulthood are an adaption to poverty, poor social mobility, and low trust society. P…

It’s a trend that’s a few centuries old at least. The French and Indian War was partly caused by Americans who didn’t have enough land to farm to support a family moving west, and the British trying to stop that was one cause of the Revolution, and then the whole of 19th century American history is a combination of farmers moving west because the east was full and immigration from Europe largely driven by the farmland of Europe being full. Before that almost everywhere was stuck in a Malthusian equilibrium and if you couldn’t support a family in your home, moving away would just make it harder.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#406

Post by funyun5 »

dlisboa wrote: post #71

Coming from a Latin American the idea of re-starting your life across the country for college and then again for work (multiple times sometimes) while away from family and friends is very foreign. A lot of the conversation around modern American youth feeling isolated, lacking socialization and not building strong relationships seems that stem from this drive. Another thing that’s really weird and related is another…

[dead]

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#407

Post by vel0city »

mlinhares wrote: post #404
vel0city wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These people can vote against this kind of zoning and can vote for transit and densification. But instead they show up in droves to city council meetings to fight against it as much as they can. They keep choosing to move further outwards once public transit expands and "the wrong people" start moving in. They complain about the neighborhood "losing its character". You've got your head in the sand if you think these…

They do exist, but they don’t exist in a vacuum, it’s decades of carbrained policies to get people to believe this is the only way to live. And the cities that do have good public transportation (by US standards) like NYC are letting it rot, thus convincing people even more this can’t possibly work. Also, people voting against their own interests is basically America for most of its time. They’ll continue to vote for…

> decades of carbrained policies

Decades of carbrained policies they voted for and continue to vote for and continue to believe in.

This isn't some shadowy cabal doing things that everyone hates but somehow has no power over. These are popular policies being picked. We're never going to enact real change if we don't acknowledge people currently do want these things, and it's not obvious to them that the alternatives are better.

You and I agree the alternatives are generally better and we should at least move to give more people the option to live in car-free or at least not car dependent areas. But a ton of people honestly think that kind of a choice is a terrible idea and don't want to see it happen. And they're far from auto industry payrolls.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#408

Post by derefr »

rayiner wrote: post #399
derefr wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Americans are motivated to move out of the small town they were born in, it's often because that "small town" is a dying and depopulated hollow shell full of awful, racist, jobless, drug-addicted idiots who are mostly only surviving off of some kind of long-term disability insurance. Often, with these kinds of places, they aren't a place your family has lived for generations, and nor are they a place you have th…

[flagged]

Yes, racist.

I took my (Asian) partner back with me to visit the small town I grew up in, and I could not believe some of the shit coming out of people's mouths when they saw her. Literally 1 in 5 people she talked to while we were there would do some sort of "funny" voice or ask her some real stupid shit; and 1 in 20 people we passed while walking around in the downtown area would shout slurs at her from across the street.

And that's with me there walking with her—I can't even imagine what they'd be doing if she was there alone.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#409

Post by nox101 »

grumpy-de-sre wrote: post #329
nox101 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what is your definition of "high trust society". I don't consider the USA a high trust society having lived in Japan and Singapore. In Japan and Singapore, I trust that others won't steal my stuff. I trust that I won't be mugged. I trust that my packages won't be stolen. I trust that my car will not be broken into. In the USA and Europe I trust none of that. I've had cars broken into 5 times, bikes stolen 5 times, ca…

Just have a look at https://ourworldindata.org/trust . The Anglo countries are all well above the global average (but admittedly East Asia and the Scandinavians have us beat). I'm super impressed by how high trust China is tbh. Apparently, since the recent increase in surveillance (and ability to police petty crime), a lot of folks don't even bother locking up bikes etc. FWIW the only Anglo country left in the EU is…

I don't trust that data (haha, trust). how do they ascertain trust? By asking? It might be true that Scandinavians claim they trust their neighbors but those are places where your stuff will get stolen, packages get stolen, you don't leave stuff on a public table to use the restroom if you don't want it stolen. In other words, you can't actually trust people. They list Japan as less trusting, even less trusting than that USA. But, actions speak louder than words. You can trust others in Japan. You can't trust others in LA, NYC, SF Bay Area, Seattle, Chicago, and other major metropolitan areas of the USA (the places where everyone lives.)

So, it seems like their methodology doesn't actually match reality and is why I don't trust their results.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#410

Post by phil21 »

nox101 wrote: post #283
seizethecheese wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

80% of Americans live near where they were born. This isn’t the root cause of estrangement.

I question whether that's relevant to the topic. Being next door to your friends and family (the article) and being a 10 mile drive from friends and family are not the same thing. In one you see each and interact with each other daily. In the other, probably at most once a month. I lived 7 miles from a close friend. I liked getting to go to his place once a month or so. He lives in a large apartment complex. One frie…

Distance really isn't that relevant. Time of travel is. This was drilled home to me having moved from a relatively "sparse" metro area to one of the most dense cities in the US.

7 miles might mean a 7 minute drive, or 90 minutes on poor public transit stuck in traffic. When I lived in my previous place, someone 7 miles away would have been a regular daily friend. Now, I would not see someone more than every few months since 7 miles is the equivalent of a 45 minute drive most hours of the day in most directions unless they happen to live right next to rapid transit.

My closest friends here in the city live a 7 minute and 18 minute walk away. I see them about as much as I'd have seen someone living 5-10 miles away from my previous location. The only real difference is the ability to drink while visiting.

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