The withering dream of a cheap American electric car • Hacker News Board

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#401

Post by hedora » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 5:40 PM UTC

GratiaTerra wrote: post #248

I took advantage of the IRA solar power and $7500 EV credit, now I have an off grid home all electric appliances and excess power for hot tubs and EV's. The Ford Lightning acts as a generator. This was the greatest most life changing and impactful legistlation ever: I've had $0 (ZERO!) in gasoline, LP, and electric utility bills since installation last year.

The thing is, we paid $50,000 to drive a brand new, mid trim line kia 99kwh ev9 off the lot. It supposedly will also support V2H with an upcoming update.

They’re moving production of that model to Georgia, for what it’s worth.

Anyway, the lightning looks great. It’s definitely a tempting replacement for our ICE truck.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#402

Post by jerkstate » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 5:41 PM UTC

GratiaTerra wrote: post #298

solardev wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does your state pay you retail for your production? And have you gotten your first annual true up bill yet? That setup is a dream for a lot of people, but it's not always easy to make happen depending on state regulations (and how powerful the utilities there are)...

I disconnected from the grid entirely so there is no bill. Since the local power company here is only paying 10 cents per kw for solar power (which they resell at greater profit), I decided to run a small crypo miner and I still have excess power on a 22kw system. I don't know of anywhere where its not legal to be solar powered but there were several thousand in costs associated with engineer plans and permits.

> Since the local power company here is only paying 10 cents per kw for solar power (which they resell at greater profit)

I think this is a common reason for disappointment in solar incentives. At least half of your power bill pays for transmission, and the half that pays for generation needs to be constructed such that the overall supply must meet the demand at all times, rather than simply supplying a number of kWh per day regardless of instantaneous demand. You can’t consider the “price” per kWh that you pay commercially to be the value of supplying a kWh to the grid, it’s much more likely that the utility is making a (subsidized) loss paying you 10c per solar kWh.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#403

Post by sleepybrett » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 5:41 PM UTC

InDubioProRubio wrote: post #320

glial wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I exclusively buy Toyotas because they are cheaper to maintain than American cars. Is your argument that I shouldn't have access to Japanese cars either? I understand the desire to have a strategic reserve of manufacturing capacity. However, the US also subsidizes the US auto industry heavily by e.g. bailing out GM and Chrysler. It frustrates me that US car manufacturers continue to make exclusively heavy, low-effici…

The protectionism there deformed the product and thus, the limited offerings are a result of the inability to compete in these segments.

The product deformed due to lack of ingenuity related to the CAFE standards.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#404

Post by NotSammyHagar » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 5:41 PM UTC

fsckboy wrote: post #387

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should be downvoted for your last comment too! Or at least someone could explain the world we live in. Is it confiscatory to have public schools, funded by your taxes, fsck guy (you do have a great handle...)? How about publicly funded (by our taxes too) police and fire protection? Uh, govt funding to help pay for hospitals? Food inspection, are you crazy you might say, the perfectly working markets of our paradi…

you need to read up on the economics of "public goods", other people have thought this through before you. In a nutshell, police and fire protection benefit everyone, because if your neighbor has low crime or low chance of fire spreading, that also benefits you, so it makes sense to include everyone in the plan. But while the $7500 was paid for by everybody else, the only person with the $0 electric bill is GP, which…

The police force in the next city doesn't really benefit me, so F them, right? Reducing greenhouse gases and the price of electricity (such as from super cheap customer provided solar power on the grid during the day) actually does benefit me and every other electricity consumer.

Some conservatives are really stuck on the $7500 rebate, they are so excited to maintain our existing industrial base. They are in extreme denial about the public subsidies of the oil industry industrial complex, when we offer something visible for an EV they lose all reason. All those other public goods were paid by everyone who pays taxes but many people don't benefit from them. Say an elderly retired person doesn't benefit from educating kids, because they are kicking the bucket in the next few years, burn it all down behind them, they might say, reduce my taxes now.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#405

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 5:42 PM UTC

knowitnone wrote: post #378

After reading some of the comments, the next questions, why are automakers not building plants in Africa? Cheap labor force, cheap land, probably needs education and training. China is courting Africa, is the US?

Government stability? Supply chain? Cost of delivery? Just the first few guesses off the top of my head.

> probably needs education and training

That's not helping!

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#406

Post by aydyn » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 5:43 PM UTC

fsckboy wrote: post #387

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should be downvoted for your last comment too! Or at least someone could explain the world we live in. Is it confiscatory to have public schools, funded by your taxes, fsck guy (you do have a great handle...)? How about publicly funded (by our taxes too) police and fire protection? Uh, govt funding to help pay for hospitals? Food inspection, are you crazy you might say, the perfectly working markets of our paradi…

you need to read up on the economics of "public goods", other people have thought this through before you. In a nutshell, police and fire protection benefit everyone, because if your neighbor has low crime or low chance of fire spreading, that also benefits you, so it makes sense to include everyone in the plan. But while the $7500 was paid for by everybody else, the only person with the $0 electric bill is GP, which…

Its not up to a single individual to fix monetary policy. Maybe you should work on your social skills before calling someone greedy for merely making money.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#407

Post by wenc » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 5:44 PM UTC

edaemon wrote: post #165

wenc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that right? With torque blending, regen braking is blended with friction braking at low speeds (when regen braking is ineffective). Friction braking is always needed to make a full stop.

Friction braking is rarely needed to make a full stop. My EV only applies blended braking in specific conditions (cold temps, steep hills, and full battery) and I essentially never touch the brake pedal.

You may not touch the brake pedal but the brake pads are still being used to make a complete stop (this is how regen braking systems work, at low speeds regen is not effective so brake pads are used for the last few feet).

You’ll use wear out your brake pads way less, but they are still used very frequently (every time you make a complete stop in fact).

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#408

Post by Pxtl » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 5:45 PM UTC

jillesvangurp wrote: post #339

bartvk wrote: post #2

https://archive.ph/9oIT4 I wish it would have adjusted for inflation. One quote: "The average transaction price for a new vehicle sold in the U.S. last month was $48,623, according to Kelley Blue Book, roughly $10,000 higher than in 2019, before the pandemic." However, about 9200 euros of that is due to inflation according to this calculator: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ That's a nitpick though. All in all,…

Lack of demand is the conventional explanation. But I think it is a bit of lazy and misleading one. I think there's plenty of demand for cheap EVs. But there's a problem with US manufacturing not being able to deliver those. Supply chains aren't there. Manufacturing capability and capacity isn't there. Etc. And of course the EV market is still actually growing in the US. It's just that companies like Tesla, Kia/Hyund…

> I think there's plenty of demand for cheap EVs. But there's a problem with US manufacturing not being able to deliver those.

How much of that has to do with the USA's extreme needs for range and size?

There are places I'd be happy to drive a subcompact with a 300km range (eg. the Byd Dolphin), but most of the USA that kind of vehicle wouldn't be safe or practical. That's an awful lot of expensive battery-mass the Byd Dolphin doesn't have to pay for.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#409

Post by wenc » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 5:45 PM UTC

saati wrote: post #121

wenc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that right? With torque blending, regen braking is blended with friction braking at low speeds (when regen braking is ineffective). Friction braking is always needed to make a full stop.

Kinetic energy is a function of velocity squared, low speed breaking damages the pads way less.

Sure but the pads are still being used frequently even with regen braking.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#410

Post by pornel » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 5:46 PM UTC

snakeyjake wrote: post #311

There are inexpensive EVs in the US. A local dealer has new Nissan Leafs available for $24.5k (after rebates) all day, every day. There are also inexpensive cars. A local dealer has new Mitsubishi Mirage Hatchbacks available for $17k all day, every day. People don't want them. They're not being tricked, cajoled, strong-armed, forced, pressured, misguided, or hoodwinked. American consumers WANT and CAN AFFORD gigantic…

These are cheap "city" EVs with small batteries and slow charging. They have all the compromises and annoyances that people don't like about EVs.

The desirable EVs have 2x-3x more range and charge 3x-4x faster. That completely changes the equation, because that makes them good enough to be the primary/only car. Even for people who don't have a charger at home, even for people who need to drive long distances.