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Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

reuters.com

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Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#401

Post by yuvalr1 »

seydor wrote: post #326
Arch485 wrote: post #192

I'm genuinely curious: how is this not considered terrorism on Israel's part? (or is it considered terrorism?) From a tactical standpoint, this is very similar, and the only big difference I see is that this is technologically more advanced/more complex than just planting a bomb or something. If it's not terrorism, what is the differentiating factor(s)? *side note: I'm quite sure other western countries have used tac…

I think it is considered terrorism. Whoever did it, nobody would say that this attack makes military sense, lebanon is not at war, and civilians have died. But since IDF didn't do it, we ll never know who the terrorists are.

Unfortunately, you are seriously uninformed. Israel and Hezbolla are in active war for more than 11 months now.

On a side note, I think people should strive to be more humble when they talk about issues they don't understand, or understand very little.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#402

Post by omginternets »

segasaturn wrote: post #392
omginternets wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do LGBT people in Russia deliberately target non-combattants with shocking levels of violence? If not, then the definition might still hold meaning and Russia's appellation might be ridiculous.

I don't know about LGBT people, but I do know the IDF "deliberately targets non-combattantts with shocking levels of violence". If these designations are so fair and neutral and free of politics then they should be a designated terrorist group too shouldn't they?

Hard disagree. The IDF kills civilians, yes, but I am not aware of a deliberate effort to target civilians. The civilian deaths are overwhelmingly a consequence of Hamas blending in with the population and conducting operations where any retaliation puts civilians at risk.

There is a meaningful difference between collateral death and terrorism.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#403

Post by minkles »

kbos87 wrote: post #391
minkles wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's how you tell them > It killed and injured more than 3 thousand people, including children. That can be rewritten with some academic honesty added if you try.

Genuinely curious, how so? This is what I see being reported in major news outlets. Thousands injured, including the families of low ranking officials who happened to be at home together when it happened.

> It killed and injured more than 3 thousand people, including children.

Well the number of killed versus injured is significant and not mentioned. The mention of children is bundled with the large figure. It could be interpreted that 3000 people were killed, 2900 of which are children, which is exactly how it will be quoted and portrayed.

This is pretty irresponsible use of language.

Check headlines and how this is portrayed and compare the statistical figures mentioned. Also who is being quoted and if they are in quotes or how they are quoted. There's a lot of ambiguity.

In times of war, which this unfortunately is, irresponsible reporting is dangerous and leads to further problems.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#404

Post by cjbprime »

JohnMakin wrote: post #337
nickff wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like the purpose was to disable enemy combatants, and prevent those combatants from striking Israel; which would be a legitimate and targeted strike. Your phrasing makes it seems like the explosives were targeted at damaging the restaurants and stores (along with, perhaps all the occupants), which would not be a legitimate and targeted strike.

My phrasing says exactly what it says - that this was indiscriminate. Do you think the IDF considered whether civilians would be harmed, or have a good possibility of being harmed? Surely blowing up thousands of devices in a major urban area would fall somewhere under this consideration.

I suppose that depends on how many of the injured people were bystanders, as opposed to being the people who owned the pagers, do you agree?

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#405

Post by I-M-S »

minkles wrote: post #306
segasaturn wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is a straw man argument. I designate you as a banana! There, the word banana is now meaningless. It is quite well defined.

The word is notoriously ill-defined, so much in fact that most newspapers of record will not use it [1]

[1] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/standards-editor/article-und...

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#406

Post by bawolff »

Arch485 wrote: post #192

I'm genuinely curious: how is this not considered terrorism on Israel's part? (or is it considered terrorism?) From a tactical standpoint, this is very similar, and the only big difference I see is that this is technologically more advanced/more complex than just planting a bomb or something. If it's not terrorism, what is the differentiating factor(s)? *side note: I'm quite sure other western countries have used tac…

> If it's not terrorism, what is the differentiating factor(s)?

Typically the differentiating factor is who the victims are and what the goal of the operation are - terrorists = victims are primarily civilian and the operation has negligible military benefit. Not terrorists = the targets are military. If there is collateral damage then it is not excessive (or not intended to be; intent matters) in relation to the military objective.

All this is subjective of course, and politics are involved, but that is what the difference is usually given as.

In this particular case - i would say it would be terrorism if it was random people's radios & pagers, but not terrorism if it was pagers/radios bought for military purpose that were primarily owned by soldiers. Initial reports suggest it is the latter, but i imagine more details will appear in time to better make that determination.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#407

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

nickff wrote: post #333
JohnMakin wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It seems like the purpose was to disable enemy combatants, and prevent those combatants from striking Israel; which would be a legitimate and targeted strike. Your phrasing makes it seems like the explosives were targeted at damaging the restaurants and stores (along with, perhaps all the occupants), which would not be a legitimate and targeted strike.

People misconstrue (naively or purposefully) what it means to target as opposed to collateral damage.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#408

Post by stetrain »

rtsil wrote: post #352
stetrain wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The definition of terrorism is controversial and political, so there isn't a hard answer. But I think a general distinction is the targeting of combatants vs civilians. There is a difference between infiltrating military or para-military organizations or operations and intentionally targeting mass casualties of civilians for attention.

I don't know about that. When Al Quaeda attacked the USS Cole, a purely military vessel without a single civilian casualty, the US administration and the entire US military called it an act of terrorrism.

Sure. "The definition of terrorism is controversial and political."

How governments, media, etc. use that word is often politically loaded and not based on some agreed objective definition.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#409

Post by KennyBlanken »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #220
kvgr wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It is terrorism if the attack is planned in such a way, where innocent people will suffer with very high probability and nothing is done to prevent that.

Inflicting casualties on innocent people to instill terror in the population has literally been Israel's military policy for at least half a century.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#410

Post by borski »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #151
mmastrac wrote: post #116

I guess they are taking a victory lap around yesterday's major embarrassment. I never thought that you could dismantle a terrorist organization so surgically by just booby-trapping comms devices. This will certainly be made into a blockbuster movie in ten years. I'll re-iterate my previous comment on this matter: this is an impressive supply-chain hack with absolutely oversized results, and you gotta hand it to them…

It doesn’t look very surgical to me given the civilian casualties and general disregard of what can happen to innocent people. If anything this looks more like a state-sponsored terrorist attack than covert ops with collateral damage.

It is targeted, by definition. Every pager was owned by a Hezbollah member or was about to be. Same with the walkies.

That there was collateral damage is unfortunate, but Israel was definitely not indiscriminately targeting civilians, which is what would make it terrorism.

This was a surgical strike that happened to have some unfortunate collateral damage. Well within the accepted rules of war.

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