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Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

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Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#401
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. Individuals want to optimize for quality of life but the decisionmakers are optimizing for household income (or perhaps GDP).

But stress didn't decrease according to the study, so it's not like their quality of life increased.

There's new stress about the money supply coming to an end.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#402
post #396

I think UBI without regulations on pricing will result in inflation that will negate the benefits of UBI. Regulating prices will have unintended consequences (outside of a specific set of goods). Perhaps the Govt needs to take over the provisioning of these basics (production and distribution) and anything outside the basics will be market driven. I know this has been tried in the past and has failed miserably. But,…

That's how it always goes with market interventions. They lean on the scales in one area which causes movement somewhere else, then try to lean on that too. Eventually end up in terrible contortions.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#403
post #385
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the goal to get people to quit their jobs and get a nice apartment? Isn't it supposed to be a minimum base level of support? Why do we keep moving the goal posts? And if everyone quits their job and lives in a nice apartment, where is this money going to come from? The problem with welfare today is that its a disincentive to work. Start working, you lose your transfer payments. A lot of people are stuck in thi…

I love the "nice" part of apartment requirement, like some UN Geneva charter of basic human rights declaration. Especially when everybody should have it, like you can clone "nice apartments" ad infinitum so everybody has >150m2, beautiful terrace with view on lake or mountains, and of course while being in or very close to city center. I wonder what other basic "nice" stuff is a must have, we can go on for a long tim…

Maybe by "nice" they just meant "not rat-infested, not cockroach-infested, the roof does not leak, it's not unlivably hot in the summer etc". Problems with which plenty of people on this planet still contend.

Your comment sure sounds like mind-reading.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#404
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$1000 can be a difference between living in a shitty apartment 2 hours drive to work and a nice apartment 10 min walk to work. I was working as a home assistant and learning C++, took me a year before getting a programming job this way. Could have been much shorter if I had $1000.

The problem is rent will go up when everyone can afford that extra 1000. Unless you build more housing UBI will just inflate housing costs

Sure, but rent will not increase by $1000 - most people don't rent, they will spend it on something else. Of course, need to build more housing, or learn to live more compactly - an average American occupies several times more floor space than most other people in the world.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#405
post #46
post #22

$1000 is not enough to quit their jobs or get a nice apartment. They could move slightly closer to work if they have to commute. It's not enough for a real tuition or to support them to study instead of work. I don't think we've ever had a universal basic income test. We have always missed the universal and basic part. It's below basic and not at all universal. I suspect that you need to get international cooperation…

Why is the goal to get people to quit their jobs and get a nice apartment? Isn't it supposed to be a minimum base level of support? Why do we keep moving the goal posts? And if everyone quits their job and lives in a nice apartment, where is this money going to come from? The problem with welfare today is that its a disincentive to work. Start working, you lose your transfer payments. A lot of people are stuck in thi…

A definition and common understanding are part of the problem/challenge:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income

It is complex. Although the label UBI suggests a good thing, I believe we should eliminate the term "universal," at least.

Humanity has always dealt with a shortage of resources and their allocation. What is certain is that no amount of UBI will fix this human condition. There will always be differences (not only economic but ideological), and people will try to compensate for them. Rinse and repeat.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#406
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the goal to get people to quit their jobs and get a nice apartment? Isn't it supposed to be a minimum base level of support? Why do we keep moving the goal posts? And if everyone quits their job and lives in a nice apartment, where is this money going to come from? The problem with welfare today is that its a disincentive to work. Start working, you lose your transfer payments. A lot of people are stuck in thi…

Back in my college speech class, a woman gave a presentation basically supporting the "welfare today is a disincentive to work" myth, with emphasis on "today" (or current), while totally destroying the notion that welfare recipients don't "want" to work. She was a stay-at-home mom with 2 kids, her husband commit suicide after serving in Iraq and then being pushed out of the military (this was the 90s when the US mili…

Some would argue she was over-compensating: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compensation_(psychology)

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re-introducing progressive tax rates would be a small start; Though, allegedly, a majority of Americans don't comprehend progressive tax rates. Many state income taxes reach the top income tax rate before the federal poverty rate (ie The federal tax rates are poorly graduated; the first, 10% rate, cuts at $11,600 over to 12%; and then we jump 10% to 22%, only for the next bracket to have only 2% bracket gap again. Im…

2024 tax brackets Tax rate Single filers Married couples filing jointly Married couples filing separately Head of household 10% $11,600 or less $23,200 or less $11,600 or less $16,550 or less 12% $11,601 to $47,150 $23,201 to $94,300 $11,601 to $47,150 $16,551 to $63,100 22% $47,151 to $100,525 $94,301 to $201,050 $47,151 to $100,525 $63,101 to $100,500 24% $100,526 to $191,950 $201,051 to $383,900 $100,526 to $191,1…

Wow! It's amazing how anti-tax Americans are when their taxes are so low!

My income is at the 24% level above, and I'm paying 52% marginal taxes in Ireland (or 35% of my total income after tax credits etc)

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#408
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the goal to get people to quit their jobs and get a nice apartment? Isn't it supposed to be a minimum base level of support? Why do we keep moving the goal posts? And if everyone quits their job and lives in a nice apartment, where is this money going to come from? The problem with welfare today is that its a disincentive to work. Start working, you lose your transfer payments. A lot of people are stuck in thi…

Back in my college speech class, a woman gave a presentation basically supporting the "welfare today is a disincentive to work" myth, with emphasis on "today" (or current), while totally destroying the notion that welfare recipients don't "want" to work. She was a stay-at-home mom with 2 kids, her husband commit suicide after serving in Iraq and then being pushed out of the military (this was the 90s when the US mili…

I'm retired.

I saved enough to live comfortably -not richly.

I spend almost all my time, writing code for free. My GH Activity Graph is almost solid green. I'm working on releasing my sixth or seventh free app in just a few years (almost all are open-source). Over the last dozen years, or so, I've released over 20 (most are deprecated).

I really don't look forward to having others destroy my work, anymore. After a fairly brief time, looking for work (at age 55), I quickly figured out that, even if anyone hired me, they would treat me (and, even worse, my work) like crap. They certainly did, during the hazi- er, interviewing process.

So I guess I'm one of those "disincentivized to work" folks.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I'm a big fan of the "for every $2 you make, you get $1 less from UBI/Welfare" That's..that's not UBI, at all. UBI is universal . If there are any means tests whatsoever , that's not UBI.

Wikipedia has a nice graph showing how UBI and NIT are effectively the same thing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income

It's the same only if the income tax is linear, which is almost never the case ? Most places have progressive income tax rates.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah and what’s more you’re contributing more to society, whether or not you can measure it in money. You have some spare time and energy to help your family, your neighbors, the person you see once a week. I want to live in a society where people have time to actually live.

Devil's advocate: why do you get to have what you want? For almost all of human history, you had to work to survive. Working is living. And yet you want to not work? So all of the resources you will need, who is going to provide them? I'm sorry, but I'd rather I not work and you work to provide the resources I need.

Comment was in response to going from 3 to 2 jobs
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