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Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

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Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#401

Post by sgammon »

tsunamifury wrote: post #352
ActionHank wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it does go to trial it would be great for people behind this to be directly tried for their criminal actions as well. The reality is that a company is on trial for the actions of individuals and if there is no follow through on that it will not change anything. I doubt it goes to trial as I am 99% sure that the judge will rubber stamp the whole thing because the US is a corporate driven hellscape where peasants ar…

You really want the engineer who was last on the line of decisions to go to jail? Because that’s how this will go.

Yes. Absolutely.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#402

Post by hdhshdhshdjd »

abeppu wrote: post #399

> If the deal is accepted, it could complicate Boeing’s ability to sell products to the U.S. government as a felon, though the company could seek waivers. About 32% of Boeing’s nearly $78 billion in revenue last year came from its defense, space and security unit. My understanding is that getting security clearance involves a bunch of checks and statements about your character, and having a federal felony conviction…

DoD will continue to do business with Boeing because there aren’t enough options because we consolidated everything into a handful of mega corps and gutted competition in defense like we have across the entire economy.

This “punishment” is a joke, these people are mass killers they should be in jail.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#403

Post by esprehn »

BartjeD wrote: post #118
supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

For spilling a hot coffee cup you get $ 2.7 million worth of punitive damages. But for killing more than 200 people and trying to hide the evidence, we'll charge you 200 million and call it a day. That's less per person than the price of a hot-coffee spill.

While I understand the spirit of what you're saying it does the woman a disservice to talk about it as being only spilling a cup of hot coffee. She was severely burned and required substantial medical treatment:

""" Liebeck went into shock and was taken to an emergency room at a hospital. She suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent.[14][13] She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. During this period, Liebeck lost 20 pounds (9.1 kg), nearly 20 percent of her body weight, reducing her to 83 pounds (38 kg). After the hospital stay, Liebeck needed care for three weeks, which was provided by her daughter.[15] Liebeck suffered permanent disfigurement after the incident and was partially disabled for two years.[16][17] """

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Rest...

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#404

Post by Zigurd »

robertlagrant wrote: post #132
akira2501 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The U.S. is not going to shut down Boeing. It's a monopoly. Just break it up. > How many jobs would be lost if that happened "We don't negotiate with [economic] terrorists." > especially in this economy? $77b annual revenue. Positive quarterly growth rate the last 8 out of 12 quarters. Two global wars we refuse to negotiate peace in and Boeing is a major weapons supplier. Then again, if you kill and scare enough pe…

> "We don't negotiate with [economic] terrorists." This is just so silly. Shutting down a company results in people losing their jobs. No terrorists involved.

Spirit Aerosystem will soon no longer exist. but the assets and almost all the jobs will be divided between Boeing and Airbus. If Boeing were split up the result would be similar.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#405

Post by abeppu »

abeppu wrote: post #399

> If the deal is accepted, it could complicate Boeing’s ability to sell products to the U.S. government as a felon, though the company could seek waivers. About 32% of Boeing’s nearly $78 billion in revenue last year came from its defense, space and security unit. My understanding is that getting security clearance involves a bunch of checks and statements about your character, and having a federal felony conviction…

Also in the "corporations as people" x "criminal justice system" vein, I would be in favor of moving towards a standard where, if a person convicted of the same crime would receive a prison sentence, a company should be forced to cease operations for an equivalent period, and put all its assets into frozen fund which can only be used to pay out debts/obligations, and which earns no interest.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#406

Post by sgammon »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #360
WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such decisions are way above the pay grade of random engineers

Never forget Kareem Serageldin - the one person who went to jail for the 2007 financial crisis. In fairness, he was an exec making $7M per year - so not a nobody, but he was only managing 70 people (Credit Suisse was a ~50k person company), and obviously not the only person who should've went to jail.

A systemic failure doesn't necessarily mean that people should go to jail; Kareem lied about the price of bonds and deserved jail time.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#407

Post by bumby »

tsunamifury wrote: post #352
ActionHank wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it does go to trial it would be great for people behind this to be directly tried for their criminal actions as well. The reality is that a company is on trial for the actions of individuals and if there is no follow through on that it will not change anything. I doubt it goes to trial as I am 99% sure that the judge will rubber stamp the whole thing because the US is a corporate driven hellscape where peasants ar…

You really want the engineer who was last on the line of decisions to go to jail? Because that’s how this will go.

Professionally licensed engineers are required to take an oath to protect the public. What many don't realize is that manufacturers like Boeing operate under a licensing exemption, on the assumption that business and manufacturing processes are sufficient to protect the public. In cases like this, there is a case that is insufficient.

There has been a movement in some states to remove the manufacturing exemption, in which case the cognizant engineer would bear the responsibility. The optimistic view is that this will help balance the power between the engineer and the C-suite. The cynical view is that this will allow the C-suite to push responsibility down to the engineer.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#408

Post by uejfiweun »

cycomanic wrote: post #56
uejfiweun wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was Calhoun really the problem? This company is one of those massive, glacial companies that have enormous inertia. Whatever changes in process led to all these disasters, it was something that started long before Calhoun's reign, I personally blame Jim McNerney.

So you're saying a CEO doesn't really change anything about a corporation, so what is he being paid for?

Do you seriously think what I'm saying is "a CEO doesn't change anything about a corporation" !?

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#409

Post by tsunamifury »

lupusreal wrote: post #376
WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such decisions are way above the pay grade of random engineers

Whether to do something you know is morally wrong or refuse and quit is always your pay grade. And don't give me the Yuppie Nuremberg Defense. "I was just following orders... because I've got a mortgage!" That doesn't fly when lives are on the line.

I think people seem to have a very romantic notion that there is some meeting where all the engineers get together and decide whether or not they are going to kill their users or not.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#410

Post by uejfiweun »

somenameforme wrote: post #18
uejfiweun wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was Calhoun really the problem? This company is one of those massive, glacial companies that have enormous inertia. Whatever changes in process led to all these disasters, it was something that started long before Calhoun's reign, I personally blame Jim McNerney.

One of the reasons we generally excuse extremely high levels of executive compensation is that when things go well, the executives take full credit for it. Does it not seem reasonable that they should also take full credit, in ways beyond words, when things do not go well? I'm very much opposed to the increasing trend of socializing costs and privatizing profits which I feel this is a sort of a spin on. 'Privatize su…

Fair enough. But I think that former executives should also be looked at, too. Otherwise, the incentive becomes to trash the company for short term profits and GTFO before shit hits the fan.
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