> We now know that bees can count, recognise human faces and learn how to use tools. I was curious what that means in this context and found this research (co-authored by Prof Chittka mentioned in the article): https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou... Apparently only a small minority of bumble bees can figure out how to pull a string to access a reward, but then other bees adopt the behavior by…
Are animals conscious? New research
401–410 of 544 posts
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#402Earlier quoted context omitted.
Now that you mention it, I don't remember any Biblical support for animals not being conscious. Humans being special, yes - animals being unconscious automata, no. A quick Google search suggests the opposite conclusion can very easily be drawn, although I see no reason to elaborate on those arguments here.
Maybe "Biblical Support" as in a strict reading of the bible . But definitely Christians have 'interpreted' the Bible in ways to minimize animals as sub-human, without souls, no spirit, etc... These discussions are ancient times stand-ins for what today we might label 'consciousness'. To say the bible didn't strictly discuss 'consciousness' or 'automata' is ignoring that Christians think 'self' resides in the 'soul'…
Here is a prompt to play with:
In Abrahamic religions, what is the ontological status of animals in general and other life forms? Are they considered generally equals or sometime far superiors?
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#403Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I was impressed because I wouldn't have noticed those books being out of place. Orthogonal to any argument about conciousness in cats, the most probable explanation is your cat was aware of your scent freshly attached to a book that previously didn't carry it. In my experience cats are acutely aware of scents, particularly known and especially unknown scents in new places. Had you been an unknown cat the chances ar…
Any time we move a piece of furniture, especially cat furniture that has been ignored for months, it becomes a new fascinating object. Most non-feral cats don't just go around pissing on everything.
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#404Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe "Biblical Support" as in a strict reading of the bible . But definitely Christians have 'interpreted' the Bible in ways to minimize animals as sub-human, without souls, no spirit, etc... These discussions are ancient times stand-ins for what today we might label 'consciousness'. To say the bible didn't strictly discuss 'consciousness' or 'automata' is ignoring that Christians think 'self' resides in the 'soul'…
I expect that most ancient people believed that animals were conscious. It's impossible to spend a lot of time with any mammal and think of it as not being aware of anything. For what it's worth, my Googling suggested that the Bible leans in the direction of animals having souls and going to the afterlife, as well.
My experience with American Christians, Catholic, Southern Baptist, is that animals don't have souls, and are not conscious.
But, there is some cute story about some cute kid asking the Pope if dogs go to heaven, and he said 'good dogs'. So that might have accidentally opened the doors.
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#405Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe "Biblical Support" as in a strict reading of the bible . But definitely Christians have 'interpreted' the Bible in ways to minimize animals as sub-human, without souls, no spirit, etc... These discussions are ancient times stand-ins for what today we might label 'consciousness'. To say the bible didn't strictly discuss 'consciousness' or 'automata' is ignoring that Christians think 'self' resides in the 'soul'…
That’s actually an interesting case of using LLM: statically what is the mundane perspective of a religious perspective. Here is a prompt to play with: In Abrahamic religions, what is the ontological status of animals in general and other life forms? Are they considered generally equals or sometime far superiors?
In Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity, and Islam—the ontological status of animals and other life forms generally places them as part of God's creation, but humans are typically seen as having a unique, superior status. Here's a brief overview of each religion's perspective:
### Judaism In Judaism, the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) describes God creating animals and humans, with humans given dominion over animals. This is based on the Genesis narrative: - *Genesis 1:26-28*: God gives humans dominion over all living creatures. - *Genesis 2:19-20*: Adam names the animals, indicating a role of stewardship and authority.
While animals are respected and their welfare is considered (e.g., the commandment to not cause unnecessary suffering, tsa'ar ba'alei chayim), humans are seen as having a special role and responsibility.
### Christianity Christianity inherits much of its view on animals from Judaism, with additional interpretations from the New Testament: - *Genesis 1:26-28*: Same as in Judaism, humans are given dominion over animals. - *New Testament*: Jesus emphasizes the value of every creature (e.g., Matthew 10:29-31 where sparrows are valued by God), but humans are considered more valuable.
Christian thought often emphasizes stewardship and care for God's creation, including animals, but maintains the superiority of humans.
### Islam In Islam, animals are also seen as part of God's creation with humans given a special status and responsibility: - *Qur'an 6:38*: Animals are considered communities like humans and are part of God's creation. - *Qur'an 16:5-8*: Animals are created for human benefit, but humans must treat them with kindness and care.
Humans are considered superior and responsible for stewardship of the Earth and its creatures, but there is an emphasis on compassion and justice towards animals.
### Comparative Perspective - *Equality and Superiority*: In all three religions, humans are generally considered superior to animals due to their unique role and responsibilities assigned by God. Animals are valued and their welfare is important, but they do not have the same status as humans. - *Stewardship*: There is a common theme of stewardship and responsible dominion, where humans are expected to care for and protect animals and the environment. - *Respect for Life*: Despite the hierarchical view, all three religions emphasize respect for life and the importance of treating animals humanely.
Overall, animals and other life forms are respected and valued in Abrahamic religions, but humans are considered to have a unique, superior status with specific duties towards other creatures.
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#406Earlier quoted context omitted.
That’s actually an interesting case of using LLM: statically what is the mundane perspective of a religious perspective. Here is a prompt to play with: In Abrahamic religions, what is the ontological status of animals in general and other life forms? Are they considered generally equals or sometime far superiors?
I plugged in your prompt In Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity, and Islam—the ontological status of animals and other life forms generally places them as part of God's creation, but humans are typically seen as having a unique, superior status. Here's a brief overview of each religion's perspective: ### Judaism In Judaism, the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) describes God creating animals and humans, with humans given d…
In the context of Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity, and Islam—there are varying interpretations regarding the consciousness of animals. While none of these religions provide a detailed scientific explanation of consciousness as understood in contemporary terms, they do offer insights that can be interpreted in different ways regarding the awareness and sentience of animals.
### Judaism In Judaism, animals are seen as sentient beings capable of feeling pain, which is reflected in the ethical treatment prescribed by Jewish law (Halakha): - *Tsa'ar Ba'alei Chayim*: The principle of not causing unnecessary suffering to animals suggests an acknowledgment of their ability to experience pain and distress. - *Genesis 9:5*: After the flood, God makes a covenant that includes animals, implying their significance and value in God's creation.
While animals are recognized as having feelings and some level of awareness, they are generally not considered to have the same level of consciousness or spiritual capacity as humans.
### Christianity Christianity, building on Jewish teachings, also acknowledges the sentience of animals to some extent: - *Matthew 10:29*: Jesus mentions that not even a sparrow falls to the ground without God's knowledge, indicating awareness of their existence and experiences. - *Proverbs 12:10*: "The righteous care for the needs of their animals," suggesting that animals have needs and can suffer.
However, like in Judaism, animals are not seen as having the same level of consciousness or soul as humans. The emphasis is more on human responsibility and stewardship rather than the intrinsic consciousness of animals.
### Islam Islam also recognizes that animals are sentient beings capable of experiencing pain and distress: - *Qur'an 6:38*: "There is not an animal on earth, nor a bird that flies on its wings, but they are communities like you," suggesting a form of consciousness and social structure. - *Hadiths*: There are several hadiths (sayings of the Prophet Muhammad) that emphasize the humane treatment of animals and acknowledge their suffering.
In Islam, animals are seen as part of God's creation with their own purpose, but humans are considered to have a higher level of consciousness and spiritual awareness.
### Comparative Perspective - *Recognition of Sentience*: All three religions recognize that animals are capable of feeling pain and experiencing distress, which is why they emphasize humane treatment. - *Hierarchy of Consciousness*: Humans are generally viewed as having a higher level of consciousness, with unique spiritual and moral responsibilities. - *Ethical Treatment*: The acknowledgment of animal sentience in these religions forms the basis for ethical guidelines regarding the treatment of animals, stressing compassion and kindness.
In summary, while animals in Abrahamic religions are considered sentient and capable of experiencing pain, they are not typically regarded as having the same level of consciousness or spiritual status as humans. The ethical treatment of animals is an important aspect of these religions, reflecting a recognition of their sentience and value within God's creation.
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#407Earlier quoted context omitted.
How else could you justify treating them as a mere raw ressource in factory?
There are a lot of things that I was taught growing up that I used to sort of just accept but from the outside don't really make any sense (as an example: where I grew up was pretty homophobic but once I was old enough I realized that the homophobia just literally made no sense and it was stupid to care what other people did). The current state of animal agriculture is one of those thing, growing up I ate meat and I…
Just put like this, it’s a bit of an opposite extreme. I mean, the rest of your message also give context that mitigate the statement, but alone it sounds a bit drastic: if some people plot a genocide against some other people, the latter would be wiser to care about it.
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#408Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, I do agree with this. There must be some strong correlation there: where a better world-model allows you to be more intelligent. Especially if that world-model contains yourself (e.g. self-consciousness). I do, however, fundamentally believe that our interior conscious experience IS our world model: e.g. There's some property of the information system we live in* such that any tightly integrated and time-cohere…
Intelligence can be defined as the ability to accurately predict the future consequences of one's actions. And the only way to make such predictions is by having an internal model of how the world works. Moreover, for social species that live and evolve in groups, like humans, this world-model must crucially include a model of oneself and other minds. We need to be able to predict how others will think and react to o…
That's not what is most essential to intelligence. What is most characteristic of intelligence is intentionality. From there, we can talk about inference, analysis, and so on, which presuppose intentionality. Whereas most animals maintain only a concrete image of the world they encounter, human beings can abstract from the concrete into the general and the universal, so the paradigmatic example of intelligence, as opposed to what may be considered analogues, is human intelligence.
Predictability is effectively a question of practicality. Intelligence is not the ability to predict, but rather, intelligence entails that ability as a consequence of intentionality and reasoning (by sufficiently comprehending the nature of a thing, you can make predictions about how it will behave under certain conditions, something that goes beyond mere cargo cult statistics and enters the realm of reason, which is to say concern for causality).
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#409Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm talking about being extremely drunk. I have a friend that "woke up" walking in a park after a night of drinking. If he was already walking exactly who woke up? My friend the human-animal was walking already. My friend the human-consciousness woke up. It was his consciousness coming back online as the ethanol was metabolized in the parts of his brain that afforded his consciousness.
There is an event that made me reconsider driving by night when sleep deprived. I was driving back home after spending night at friend's place. It was around 4am, the whole family sleeping in the car. I didn't have any alcohol in my system because I always kept a 0 alcohol policy if I have to drive. I knew the trip well because I was driving it several times a months. A few km before reaching home I realized I had no…
Excellent move for your family and yourself, congratulation.
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#410Earlier quoted context omitted.
How do you "prove" that other people are conscious? This isn't a gotcha question: to me they're both obviously true. The question is what kind of evidence do you require, and why do people require different evidence for people vs other animals.
> How do you "prove" that other people are conscious? For sentience scientists mainly look at behavioral cues: > For example, "if a dog with an injured paw whimpers, licks the wound, limps, lowers pressure on the paw while walking, learns to avoid the place where the injury happened and seeks out analgesics when offered, we have reasonable grounds to assume that the dog is indeed experiencing something unpleasant." A…