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How Waymo outlasted the competition and made robo-taxis a real business

fortune.com

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Re: How Waymo outlasted the competition and made robo-taxis a real business

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is if it disengages or requires intervention twice. The major players are at tens of thousands of miles between disengagement. We’re talking days or weeks of non-stop driving without disengagements.

Disengagement on a Tesla (manual override of the specific driver, riding on an unknown route) vs Waymo (pre-mapped tiny geographical area, no info on what counts as disengagement) can not be comparable.

They are both pursuing the same goal: making a self-driving car. That makes them comparable. There's nothing stopping Tesla from pre-mapping; their decision not to do that doesn't suddenly make them incomparable.

The only differentiating factor is that Tesla's approach has theoretical benefits, if they can prove it works. If they could hit the same disengagements/mile rate as Waymo, they would likely be ahead since they don't need pre-mapping.

That being said, theoretical benefits are worth about the same as monopoly money. Until they can demonstrate that they can get the same performance without pre-mapping and LIDAR, it's all just conjecture. There are no points awarded for "yeah, well if mine had worked it would have been better!" They might get there eventually, but the current signs don't seem promising. At least not for getting there before Waymo completely eats the market.

Also, at least Waymo's disengagements are known. They're defined by the DMV, it's basically "any time control needs to be taken away from the autopilot". If a human in the car manually takes over, that's a disengagement. If the car decides it can't drive safely and prompts a human to take over, that's a disengagement. If someone has to log in to the car with a joystick to get it somewhere, that's a disengagement.

The only confusing situation I'm aware of is when remote techs give the car waypoints, like if it gets confused in a parking lot. I don't believe that counts as a disengagement because the car is still driving itself, it's basically just failing at pathfinding. That seems reasonable to me, because it's not a safety risk at all, just an annoyance to the business.

Re: How Waymo outlasted the competition and made robo-taxis a real business

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they are humans who need to eat.

that argument applies to literally every single person to ever exist. do you tip every one you interact with on a daily basis? coffee server, bus driver, lunch server, office cleaner, hairdresser, grocery assistant... maybe it's a cultural difference

I agree with your sentiment, but traditionally (in the United States) cab drivers are one of the few service providers that one is culturally expected to tip.

Re: How Waymo outlasted the competition and made robo-taxis a real business

#403

I much prefer Waymos as a pedestrian. They always stop at stop signs.

The most common place for pedestrians to die is on the side of low speed highways at night. They're typically struck from behind. The other common mode is secondary to an original crash. Vehicles either are pushed into different roadways, over abutments, or down hills, which causes the vehicle to roll or otherwise crash into pedestrian areas without warning. This is most common in winter conditions.

I don't think deaths are the sole problem, and also I don't think nationwide statistics are appropriate considering that San Francisco (where Waymo's robotaxi service area is) has approximately zero low-speed highways.

Re: How Waymo outlasted the competition and made robo-taxis a real business

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends how quickly it happens, and how well they are paying attention. We all know those accident prone drivers who are never "at-fault" - just very bad at avoiding them! However, the human has the major advantage of having a brain and being able to understand the consequences and potential outcomes of something in real-time as it is unfolding. I doubt most autopilots would understand the situations I mentioned -…

Here's the thing: the technology will get faster and better. Your average driver is already at the limits of human capabilities with no room for improvement unless they go train to drive like F1 racers. So comparing humans to the current state of tech seems silly given that the tech will assuredly one day be faster than a human.

> the tech will assuredly one day be faster than a human

I'll be happy to take it seriously after that happens. In the meantime, I'm sticking with my belief that unreliable automation is worse than no automation.

Re: How Waymo outlasted the competition and made robo-taxis a real business

#405
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole thing is largely probabilistic in many ways/parts, and it seems like more sensors, especially more sensors that operate in different modalities, is better, assuming your sensor fusion is working properly so that each additional sensor adds certainty to your predictions. There are atmospheric conditions and obstructions that lidar can see through that cameras can't. Cameras also seem prone to being blocked b…

Camera obstructions are big problem, yes. A combination of hardware fixes (making it less likely for obstructions to happen in the first place), redundancy, and detection of the issue coupled with an escape plan, is the general approach to fixing it. (the escape plan is a big one: a lot of effort goes into making sure the car can stop/pull over safely if something goes wrong)

Thanks! That all makes perfect sense…

Re: How Waymo outlasted the competition and made robo-taxis a real business

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends how quickly it happens, and how well they are paying attention. We all know those accident prone drivers who are never "at-fault" - just very bad at avoiding them! However, the human has the major advantage of having a brain and being able to understand the consequences and potential outcomes of something in real-time as it is unfolding. I doubt most autopilots would understand the situations I mentioned -…

Here's the thing: the technology will get faster and better. Your average driver is already at the limits of human capabilities with no room for improvement unless they go train to drive like F1 racers. So comparing humans to the current state of tech seems silly given that the tech will assuredly one day be faster than a human.

> Your average driver is already at the limits of human capabilities with no room for improvement unless they go train to drive like F1 racers.

You just dreamed up this statement and immediately believed it.

Re: How Waymo outlasted the competition and made robo-taxis a real business

#407
post #341
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guilty of thoughts about autonomous companies. They don't require AI necessarily, just a formula to hire reliable humans. One could short cut to the gedankenexperiment by assuming the company owner is a p-zombie[0]. It would boil down to the same thing without scaring the humans. Even the judge would have to accept it. edit: What to do when people get brain chips? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_z…

The self-owned car company idea is fighting in my "list of short stories I'd write if I had the skill and got off my ass and did it" with a variant where the company is formed in middle ages Europe, and driven (at least at first) by written policy, in exactly that way. There would be a legal firm to handle direct tasks, and vetting contractors, then an auditing legal firm. A CEO-type, and various checks/fail-safes. P…

Your taxi company should start in the middle ages and gradually develop for 1500 years.

A friend from Türkiye told me in his village they take turns taking everyone's cows to pasture every morning and back home at the end of the day. Some homes are abandoned, people died, the gates are open, the cows still living there just join the heard and go back home at the end of the day.

Horses or dogs should be able to learn to walk from A to B if they get food there. If you don't pay them they should eventually refuse (specially if it is you again) and require some payment in advance. Younglings can be tied to the cart. I think they will know their route eventually.

You could even have a Musk like figure promising it will work next year for the first few decades.

Re: How Waymo outlasted the competition and made robo-taxis a real business

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends how quickly it happens, and how well they are paying attention. We all know those accident prone drivers who are never "at-fault" - just very bad at avoiding them! However, the human has the major advantage of having a brain and being able to understand the consequences and potential outcomes of something in real-time as it is unfolding. I doubt most autopilots would understand the situations I mentioned -…

Here's the thing: the technology will get faster and better. Your average driver is already at the limits of human capabilities with no room for improvement unless they go train to drive like F1 racers. So comparing humans to the current state of tech seems silly given that the tech will assuredly one day be faster than a human.

The F1 example is totally wrong. The F1 controller runs at 10kHz hard real-time, the car controller at 500mHz, a human driver can react at maximum 30ms. A F1 driver is nothing compared to its controller, whilst the normal car driver has comparable reaction times.

You cannot train a F1 driver for highly dynamic events at 20k rpm and 4000 NM forces at the axles, you need automated controllers for that. You can train him for simple things, like gear switching (5ms) and hitting the breakpoints right. But an AI will be at least 10.000 better than a human on this.

You need a slow human brain for the stupid mistakes instead.

Re: How Waymo outlasted the competition and made robo-taxis a real business

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends how quickly it happens, and how well they are paying attention. We all know those accident prone drivers who are never "at-fault" - just very bad at avoiding them! However, the human has the major advantage of having a brain and being able to understand the consequences and potential outcomes of something in real-time as it is unfolding. I doubt most autopilots would understand the situations I mentioned -…

Here's the thing: the technology will get faster and better. Your average driver is already at the limits of human capabilities with no room for improvement unless they go train to drive like F1 racers. So comparing humans to the current state of tech seems silly given that the tech will assuredly one day be faster than a human.

> Your average driver is already at the limits of human capabilities with no room for improvement unless they go train to drive like F1 racers.

This is nowhere near true. The skill range from average driver (who knows nothing about car control or reacting correctly) to F1 drivers is vast. There's a huge gray area between these extremes that would be improve safety is people chose (or were forced to) get some training.

Even something as basic as taking a car control clinic once a year would improve the average driver skill and safety by a huge amount.

Re: How Waymo outlasted the competition and made robo-taxis a real business

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's still plenty that can go wrong in a hurry even if you are just streaming along in lane. All it takes is for something non-routine to happen such as a car ahead reacting to an animal, or swerving as the driver reaches for something or spills coffee on themself, or a wheel come off a car (I've seen it happen to a car in front of me), or a car crosses the center median in opposite direction (which left my ex-bos…

> All it takes is for something non-routine to happen such as a car ahead reacting to an animal, or swerving as the driver reaches for something or spills coffee on themself, or a wheel come off a car (I've seen it happen to a car in front of me), or a car crosses the center median in opposite direction (which left my ex-boss hospitalized for 6 months) Inherent in this statement is the assumption that in such types o…

Humans can make assumptions about humans better than machines. For example there was a trailer with a tire that blew out in front of me. It was rapidly slowing. I checked my mirrors and was being tail-gated too closely to hit the breaks. There was a car in the lane right of me, and lane right behind me.

I merged hard right before it was clear. I assumed the car on my right would do the same, and the driver further behind would break in time. They either made the same assumptions as me or took my queues and acted accordingly and everything turned out ok.

It is pretty amazing how people can coordinate on-the-fly.

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