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Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

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Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#401

Post by randomdata »

tmarsden wrote: post #376

I think this all boils down to what Ted Kaczynski talked about in "Industrial Society and Its Future." Specifically "The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race" because "in modern industrial society only minimal effort is necessary to satisfy one’s physical needs." I would say 99.999% of all modern work is "surrogate activity" (an activity that is directed toward an artific…

> I think this is particularly acute for those in software development because it is so abstract and disconnected from the physical world.

Or is it what the "legendary" comment in the original link calls attention to: That the pay is good? As a result, you technically only need to spend a minutes per day, if that, working on software. Everything else is fluff. This seems to match what Kaczynski is talking about.

Take a job developing software that just barely covers the cost of your survival needs and I expect there is no chance you will feel empty about it.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#402

Post by shuntress »

ravenstine wrote: post #52
sukruh wrote: post #35

Most of the people I know who pursue creative/crafting hobbies alongside a software development job have chosen to work for well-known big companies, for prestige and safety, and ended up unfulfilled in their jobs. Most big companies are not good if you want to solve problems and build stuff. Especially "the enterprise", where software is seen as a cost center so the less of it the better. The effort of managing up e…

At a level or two down from the abstraction of company size, crafting hobbies are also a reprieve from the tyranny of linters. So many programmers today believe that code is always better when it all looks identical. Consistency is a good thing, but not when it's expected to be absolute. Programming should actually allow for creativity, and where you decide to add spaces and newlines can actually add subtle but impor…

> they don't spend their time bikeshedding or homogenizing their work.

They would if their woodworking projects spanned decades and involved thousands of other woodworkers.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#403

Post by tstrimple »

91bananas wrote: post #352
colecut wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you inherited woodworking tools from your grandfather, I'm assuming that either your grandfather or father taught you some woodworking skills? I grew up on the computer since I was a preteen. My dad moved 2000 miles away when I was 11. Every job I've ever had since I was 14 was web/software related and I am nearly 39. I feel like I have no practical skills outside of computers and the idea of building things with…

As others have mentioned, try. Youtube has a literal endless wealth of knowledge of how to do any task. I learned how to machine metal after 5 months of background youtube videos on manual machining. Youtube Apprenticeship.

I had no interest in cars mechanically growing up. I still don't really. But when the repair shop told me they couldn't replace my alternator for two weeks, I went to the parts store, put on the YouTube video for the replacement of that specific part on my specific van year range, rolled up my sleeves and got to work. It easily took me twice as long as someone with any amount of experience doing the same job, and I ran into challenges like having to pry the radiator far enough out of the way without damaging it to give enough room to wiggle the alternator out. Having to zip tie a long stick onto a wrench to extend the reach to get one particularly obnoxious bolt out.

I've also replaced the starter and replaced the default head unit with something modern that includes GPS. Most of it was intimidating to get started, but none of it was what I would call difficult. There's too many very specific guides around showing you exactly what you need to do. And developers are used to following guides and running into inconsistent documentation and troubleshooting from there. Most of them would be right at home stumbling their way through auto repair.

Last year I epoxied my garage floor and got very good results thanks to my YouTube studies. My YouTube internship has also lead to me re-modelling my entire kitchen. I designed everything in sketchup and am in the middle of building the custom cabinets. I'll end up mixing and pouring concrete countertops myself as well. I've repaired my dishwasher twice and my dryer three times by looking up symptoms online and ordering the most likely parts and just digging in. Every time there have been videos with the specific model and the specific problem that I can follow along with.

Again, none of this is what I would consider to be difficult relative to some of the technical problems I've had to face at work. It's all very well documented processes and combined with the ability to troubleshoot and the budget to not have to fight your tools all the time and most things seem to be very achievable by non-experts. I still don't consider myself to be "handy". But I know I can fix pretty much anything in my house or on my vehicle with enough tutorials and time.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#404

Post by IshKebab »

conductr wrote: post #241
IshKebab wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you rather - it took 8 days and you said it would take 1-8 days, or it took 8 days and you said it would take exactly 4 days ? In any case, there should be absolutely no problem explaining why it took 8 days if it really did.

> if it really did The fact you even had to say that part points to the management problem at hand. Not only are you trying to keep idle time low, you're trying to estimate essentially unknown timelines, and you have to think about whether people are even telling the truth or padding hours where they feel they can. I just think the range is too wide. Sure anything can be a 1 day task (potentially just an easy solutio…

I don't really follow you to be honest.

> Not only are you trying to keep idle time low

Yes... I'm paid to work.

> you're trying to estimate essentially unknown timeline

Yes. The exact amount of time the task will take is unknown. That doesn't mean I have no idea how long it will take. The point of the estimate is to tell other people my idea of how long it will take. Even if I only have a rough idea it is probably a better idea than a lot of people.

Incidentally I've found that a lot of people don't understand that, and I have a hack! If you find yourself in a situation where you're waiting for something... let's say roadworks, and you say "any idea how long it will take?" and they refuse to give an estimate, even though they clearly have a better idea than you... What you can do is suggest an outlandish number, and then they'll say "oh no no not that long. More like x".

Worked every time I've tried it.

I can't parse your second paragraph at all.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#405

Post by tmarsden »

brazzy wrote: post #399
tmarsden wrote: post #376

I think this all boils down to what Ted Kaczynski talked about in "Industrial Society and Its Future." Specifically "The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race" because "in modern industrial society only minimal effort is necessary to satisfy one’s physical needs." I would say 99.999% of all modern work is "surrogate activity" (an activity that is directed toward an artific…

> I would say 99.999% of all modern work is "surrogate activity" (an activity that is directed toward an artificial goal that people set up for themselves merely in order to have some goal to work toward.) That's one of the most absurd hyperboles (or the most detached-from-realiy statements) I have ever seen. That would mean only one out of 100,000 people is doing "real" work. Or if you spread it evenly, less than on…

You're probably right, it was a made up number to make a point. The point being that if you are not growing your own food (or hunting it) you're probably engaged in "surrogate activity" for a living and not directly satisfying your physical needs. Would you say more than 1/100,000 people in today's world grow and or hunt for their food daily?

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#406

Post by lawlessone »

irrational wrote: post #327
sukruh wrote: post #35

Most of the people I know who pursue creative/crafting hobbies alongside a software development job have chosen to work for well-known big companies, for prestige and safety, and ended up unfulfilled in their jobs. Most big companies are not good if you want to solve problems and build stuff. Especially "the enterprise", where software is seen as a cost center so the less of it the better. The effort of managing up e…

I like the big companies because I can be paid a hefty six figure salary while working 4 hour days and spending the rest of the hours doing woodworking, gardening, home remodeling, baking, exercising, reading, etc.

psst, stop saying it.

Companies would rather overwork 1 person than pay 2 and have both slightly under utilized

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#407

Post by tstrimple »

_yb2s wrote: post #371
91bananas wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have mentioned, try. Youtube has a literal endless wealth of knowledge of how to do any task. I learned how to machine metal after 5 months of background youtube videos on manual machining. Youtube Apprenticeship.

This seems like the real answer here... you have to actually try, and not make excuses why it's impossible to even try. Lots of somewhat abrasive replies say you need a ton of money, time, and space that most people don't have to do hobbies- but those are easy excuses, and are simply not true.

Having the right tools can make the experiences far, far better. But it's often not a requirement. I can imagine the prospect of cutting dozens of rabbets by hand using a rabbet plane might keep some people away. If they had the space and money for a router table or table saw setup to cut dados they might stick with it and create more things. It's the same with programming. There are tons of developers who learned when there weren't good tools or documentation and became deep experts. As the tools got easier and easier to learn, the bar for who could participate dropped as well. So we have a lot of productive developers today who couldn't have really participated in "old school" software development at all. Ultimately I agree with you though. A willingness to try is 80% of the challenge it seems.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#408

Post by jononor »

brazzy wrote: post #399
tmarsden wrote: post #376

I think this all boils down to what Ted Kaczynski talked about in "Industrial Society and Its Future." Specifically "The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race" because "in modern industrial society only minimal effort is necessary to satisfy one’s physical needs." I would say 99.999% of all modern work is "surrogate activity" (an activity that is directed toward an artific…

> I would say 99.999% of all modern work is "surrogate activity" (an activity that is directed toward an artificial goal that people set up for themselves merely in order to have some goal to work toward.) That's one of the most absurd hyperboles (or the most detached-from-realiy statements) I have ever seen. That would mean only one out of 100,000 people is doing "real" work. Or if you spread it evenly, less than on…

1 in 100k is a stretch. But 1 in 10 maybe? Physically we need water, food, shelter and medical care. Around 10% of US workforce is in agriculture, but a decent chunk of that is probably for providing non-essentials foodstuffs. So maybe only 10% work on actually providing all the essentials for human life.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#410

Post by arcanemachiner »

probably_wrong wrote: post #311
jimbokun wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How you choose to add whitespace to your code is not a meaningful outlet for creativity. Linters are a great tool for eliminating bike shedding. I don't think wood working per se gives you more flexibility than building software. It's wood working as an individual, not part of a team, so you can make your own decisions and not answer to anyone. If you were a one man software consultant you would have the same amount…

> How you choose to add whitespace to your code is not a meaningful outlet for creativity. I'd like to mildly disagree. Using whitespace to group functionality together in "paragraphs" and aligning the horizontal indentation in the clearest possible way is not too far away from editing a short story to make it flow better. Earlier today my linter rearranged multiple "key: value" one-liners into two-liners and the end…

This is why I like when formatters give you some wiggle room in how the rules are applied.

Like, in Prettier, adding a trailing comma to a short list of items will tell the formatter to put each item on it own line, while removing the trailing comma will keep each item in a single line (if the line length is not too long).

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