End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity • Hacker News Board

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#401

Post by SilverBirch » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 4:36 PM UTC

The_Colonel wrote: post #184

SilverBirch wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be the motivation for a boycott? That the Saudis spend their money on stupid vanity projects? In general I think this is one of the better uses of the cash - hell, a vast amount of the money spent on this is going to flow straight out to western companies who have the experience and expertise to actually deliver these complex infrastructure projects. Think of the alternatives, top 5 oil producing countries…

> Russia (13bb/day) I wonder where do you have this number from? According to this source, Russia never reached 11bb/day, current production is ~10bb: https://ycharts.com/indicators/russia_crude_oil_production

Sorry that was a typo, you're right it's 10.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#402

Post by somewho » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 4:39 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #120

lvl102 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For decades, they wanted to diversify away from oil and build tech industries. The problem is they don’t have skilled labor and would have to import “slaves” as they do with everything. They have some of the lowest skilled and laziest labor in the world. If/when dependence on oil ends, these countries will go back to being poor. Edit: contrast ME with Mexico who is running out of oil. Yet, they are able to build beca…

UAE is well on its way to being the Switzerland of the Middle East and Indian Ocean. Your rhetoric sounds like it’s from 2003.

You wrote the 40M comment!

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#403

Post by vladms » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 4:39 PM UTC

zaphirplane wrote: post #329

vladms wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The above replies did not mention an ethnic group, rather a geographical area. The main ethnic group in that area is also very present in north Africa, and there is much less general "mistrust" (or negative feelings) towards that area than to the other. Not sure if "geographic discrimination" is in any way better than "racism" but using terms correctly is required for good communication.

Can you name the ethnic group. I’m not as confident as you in saying there is a single ethnic group encompassing gulf to North Africa

I never mentioned "an ethnic group". I mentioned "main" and "very present" - neither absolutes. The main point: comment was not racist. It was discriminatory based on other topics than race (geography or religion).

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#404

Post by oliviabenson » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 5:08 PM UTC

ethanbond wrote: post #398

oliviabenson wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good outcomes by what measure? Happiness? Freedom? Community? GDP? I will argue that by many standards, what we view as barbaric has better outcomes. Have you met a Singaporean? I disagree with their criminal justice system (as I do the U.S. but I rank Singapore’s as “worse”) and yet it has better outcomes for the majority of its citizens by most measures. Are they the measures you and I care about? Probably not, bec…

You are aware that the existence of grey areas does not negate the existence of different ends of the spectrum, right? I’m not arguing the world is simple and entire countries/civilizations can be placed on one end or the other. I am saying that there are countless dimensions that matter, and there are better and worse locations along those dimensions . On the dimension of drug addiction rates, Singapore is doing bet…

If your conclusion from my comments is that I would have been indifferent towards slavery then I have either mistakenly passed my comments through an opinion-inverter or you're reading my comments in bad faith. I am very progressive, I hold fringe views that I don't think will be mainstream for a couple more decades.

I hope I wouldn't need to say it, but for the record: I oppose slavery. I oppose gender based discrimination. I oppose sexuality based discrimination. I oppose racism. I oppose the death penalty. I oppose drug criminalisation. I oppose the American prison system. I oppose the smug western superiority complex about our behaviour being "modern" or the "best" or "ahead" of the rest of the world. I oppose referring to Saudi Arabia as "not modern" (or backwards or whatever term is in right now) which I believe is patronising and a view reserved for those without the willingness to be introspective.

For the oppressed gay man in Saudi Arabia, there's a gay man homeless on the streets of the United States, dying from neglect, after being kicked out of their home as a teenager by their Christian fundamentalist parents, thrown to the mercy of a society that couldn't care less about them. Let's put them on a spectrum, how many points is "dying homeless on the streets of America because of being gay" compared to "can't be openly gay in Saudi Arabia"? How many points for "robbed on the streets of San Francisco for the 8th time" when compared to "can leave valuables out in public without concern because there's so little crime in Singapore"?

If your vision for a better world starts with disparaging Saudi Arabia, I fear you are deeply uninspired and will not have the impact on the world that you could have if you instead focused on yourself and your culture. I also hope someday you appreciate the irony of you having worked for Palantir of all companies while talking about moral superiority of the west. I wonder where Peter Thiel would land on our Spectrum Of Moral Superiority. Actually, I don't want to know, let me live another day without reading a defence of that ghoul.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#405

Post by Simon_ORourke » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 5:24 PM UTC

Y_Y wrote: post #348

ethanbond wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was slavery-era America worse on the dimension of human rights or just different? Why does cultural relativism excuse horrors of actual modern people with access to and awareness of all modern thinking, modern technology, and modern examples of societies who achieved moral progress, but we’re perfectly comfortable saying slave owners of the past are responsible for their crimes despite being raised by slave owners in…

I agree with your point, but I think it's not fair to blame cultural relativism. Relativism means not prescribing a single morality applicable in all contexts. That's something on which reasonable people will differ. If you do accept it though, you're not obliged to permit everything. For example I think that there were relatively moral people who lived in e.g. the US and Saudi Arabia ~300 years ago and accepted slav…

So you're saying that morally the difference between cannibal and anyone else in society is simply a menu preference?

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#406

Post by ethanbond » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 5:34 PM UTC

oliviabenson wrote: post #404

ethanbond wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are aware that the existence of grey areas does not negate the existence of different ends of the spectrum, right? I’m not arguing the world is simple and entire countries/civilizations can be placed on one end or the other. I am saying that there are countless dimensions that matter, and there are better and worse locations along those dimensions . On the dimension of drug addiction rates, Singapore is doing bet…

If your conclusion from my comments is that I would have been indifferent towards slavery then I have either mistakenly passed my comments through an opinion-inverter or you're reading my comments in bad faith. I am very progressive, I hold fringe views that I don't think will be mainstream for a couple more decades. I hope I wouldn't need to say it, but for the record: I oppose slavery. I oppose gender based discrim…

No, I didn't say that you are indifferent to nor pro-slavery.

I said that you'd land on the conclusion of allowing it, presumably despite your own personal preferences. Many people who opposed abolition also personally opposed slavery, but used arguments identical to yours to oppose action against slavery. The lack of action would've, obviously, allowed slavery to persist indefinitely.

Can you explain how (or if) your moral system would prevent you from landing on that conclusion? It's a simple question that doesn't depend on theatrics to ask nor answer.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#407

Post by The_Colonel » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 6:41 PM UTC

gherkinnn wrote: post #399

The_Colonel wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The line is the initial city design. But then in 20, 100, 500 years you have two empty sides (equally accessible from any place in the line city) which you can use for more infrastructure (e.g. airports), industry, recreation, agriculture etc. Meanwhile if you design a disc city, you can keep expanding outwards, but that's going to be increasingly far from the center. It's going to be very difficult to build a new ai…

Ifs contingent on whens and you end up with a blob anyway. Until you get to the blob everybody's life is miserable because a line is daft. This is applying the terrible thinking that gives us micro service hell to city planning.

> a line is daft

I think your argumentation rests on this, but you should explain why it's daft and how it makes people's lives miserable. I would personally enjoy having 20 minute access to any place in the city I live (which is far from having 9 million people) and still have a vast open space nearby.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#408

Post by dang » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 6:52 PM UTC

dappermanneke wrote: post #216

Ahmd72 wrote: post #214

The sheer arrogance of Westerners is one of the reasons I'm so biased against them and letting them enter any of the Muslim countries, like come on are we supposed to be taking lessons from people who gave us the Holocaust, the World wars, the Iraq war, the forceful displacement of Palestinians so they can create their own country. Are you people really that blind that you think whatever you think or values you have…

[flagged]

Attacking other users like this will get you banned here. No more of this, please.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Edit: you've unfortunately been breaking the site guidelines so often that I've banned the account.

If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#409

Post by somenameforme » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 7:09 PM UTC

Y_Y wrote: post #348

ethanbond wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was slavery-era America worse on the dimension of human rights or just different? Why does cultural relativism excuse horrors of actual modern people with access to and awareness of all modern thinking, modern technology, and modern examples of societies who achieved moral progress, but we’re perfectly comfortable saying slave owners of the past are responsible for their crimes despite being raised by slave owners in…

I agree with your point, but I think it's not fair to blame cultural relativism. Relativism means not prescribing a single morality applicable in all contexts. That's something on which reasonable people will differ. If you do accept it though, you're not obliged to permit everything. For example I think that there were relatively moral people who lived in e.g. the US and Saudi Arabia ~300 years ago and accepted slav…

Slavery, throughout history, was generally not seen as desirable. Rather, it was either seen as a necessary evil, upon which a "logical rationale" (read: cognitive dissonance) was built up to justify it, or as a form of punishment. Aristotle actually predicted its end about 2000 years before it happened [1]:

---

For if every instrument could accomplish its own work, obeying or anticipating the will of others, like the statues of Daedalus, or the tripods of Hephaestus, which, says the poet, "of their own accord entered the assembly of the Gods."

If, in like manner, the shuttle would weave and the plectrum touch the lyre without a hand to guide them, chief workmen would not want servants, nor masters slaves.

- Aristotle ~350BC

---

He also made regular indirect mention of abolitionists and abolitionist causes, which have obviously existed for millennia. It's not just some coincidence that the Industrial Revolution happens and within about a century most of every country (that had benefited from said industrialization) had outlawed slavery. It's not that we became more moral, but rather it became comfortable enough to dispose with slavery. So we did, and then attributed that to "modern thinking."

[1] - https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/politics.mb.txt

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#410

Post by jjfoooo4 » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 7:15 PM UTC

cs02rm0 wrote: post #346

No great surprise, they have form here. The Saudis announced six megaprojects in 2005. King Abdullah Economic City was the only one that went anywhere. I believe it was supposed to have 2 million people and reached about 7 thousand. They've kicked people out of the area, killed at least one person, trashed the area with initial construction efforts (I've driven past) and now the inevitable seems to be coming to pass…

Is Dubai really diversified away from oil? My naive impression is that it’s a major center for capital, with most of that capital coming from oil.

Saudi diversification from oil is a fantasy. The culture is medieval from the POV of the rest of the world, and the hostile climate is only getting worse.