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Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

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Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#401

Post by stephen_g »

Aloha wrote: post #372
Retric wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the continental US you get ~2x the heat from burning natural gas in a combined cycle turbine to run a heat pump than you would from using a high efficiency gas furnace. The market price of electricity vs gas varies quite a bit through time and various distortions of the market. Currently gas is cheap, but you want to compare historical averages when buying something that lasts 15+ years not simply look at current…

I don't think your math adds up. Combined cycle is like at most 70% efficient, subtract 10% of distribution, you end up with 60%. At 50f my 5T heat pump takes 6.6 kWh to generate 50,000 BTU. 6 kWh of energy takes 71cf of gas to make - accounting for transmission and generation losses. 71cf of gas will make 71,000 BTU of heat, assuming an 80% efficiency furnace, that comes out to 56,000 BTU usable. Yes a heat pump wil…

What kind of system do you have that is only giving you (if I’ve converted the those very confusing units correctly) a COP of 2.2 at 10° C? That’s really very poor… There are air-to-water units that can achieve COP > 4 at 0° C, and even a good air-to-air should still be over COP 3… I’d expect to see a COP like that at -15° C or below on a modern unit…

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#402

Post by deepsun »

mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

Why wouldn't heat pump work on gas?

It's already done -- RV fridges work on propane directly, without converting it to electricity. A fridge is a heat pump.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#403

Post by twoodfin »

taude wrote: post #393
mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

Also, doesn't states like MA import a not-insignificant amount of natural gas from elsewhere to convert to electricity? Would like to hear about what's more efficient: direct natural gas heating vs natural gas -> electricity -> heat pump...

Yes, and for nominally climate-driven reasons MA has constrained the construction of pipelines and other facilities that would allow the cheaper delivery of natural gas for cheaper electricity… thus discouraging consumers like me from moving to electrical utilities that would net reduce emissions.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#404

Post by dhosek »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #196
dhosek wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My ex-wife had a two-day power outage last month (it was only a few hours at my apartment) during a cold snap. She has gas heat, but the problem is that the heat gets circulated by fans¹ which are powered by— electricity . She had to get a hotel room for the night because she wasn’t comfortable sleeping with the gas fireplace on. ⸻ 1. I would guess that thermostats also powered by electricity not working would add to…

Of course, but gas utility supply means a much smaller generator is needed just to operate the fans and thermostat and much less on-hand fuel is needed to operate the generator. Natural gas is just a very convenient and very dense source of energy when you need it most.

In the entirety of my life, most of which has been in the Chicago area, I have never seen a home with a generator for the fans and thermostat of a home. For that matter, the only home generator I ever saw was one my grandfather bought which he only used once to see if it worked.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#405

Post by NewJazz »

waynesonfire wrote: post #397
jrockway wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emergency heat was under-installed. In the midwest, you have to have it, and it will suck down a ton of electricity for the handful of days a year you need it. Being entirely reliant on mini-splits without resistive emergency heating is a very strange choice, and it's not what heat pump advocates are recommending. The idea behind heat pumps is to eliminate the need for the natural gas distribution infrastructure. As…

> it's not what heat pump advocates are recommending. sure seems like someone is. could it possibly be the heat pump salesmen? the idea behind heat pumps is to sell heat pumps. In the event you're cold, maybe you should get a furnace too. But that wasn't part of the sales pitch. Regardless, there are now two appliances you have to maintain. Tell me again how much money this saves?

Tell me again how much money this saves?

Who said that was the goal?

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#406

Post by Areading314 »

bagels wrote: post #214
mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

Right, the heat pump will reduce energy use to maybe 1/3 of a gas furnace, but natural gas is something like 6x cheaper for the same amount of energy, so it is an expensive folly. If California is serious about this, they need to reign in the utilities to reduce prices and or stop the attacks on solar installation.

Solar isn't a useful source of energy for heating in California, since the demand is almost entirely during winter mornings/evenings where the sun is down.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#407

Post by lazide »

CaliforniaKarl wrote: post #327
mullingitover wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Southern Cali resident here: I got a mini split system installed a couple years back, and last year's eye-popping surprise gas bill inspired me to start running it backward for heat instead of using the furnace. Pricewise, it's actually a wash. My electric bill went up by about $100 a month, whereas during the winter my gas bill was running about $100 a month to run the furnace (aside from that one random $600 bill o…

Thank you for posting that. Although the cost of electricity is important, when deciding on using a heat pump for heat, the big question is the cost of electricity for heating, relative to the cost of the fuel you are already using (natural gas, propane, oil, etc.). It's definitely annoying to calculate! Since a heat pump's efficiency can vary with the outside temperature, it takes a bit of work to estimate your pote…

Also cost of capital for installing the heat pump, if a new installation.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#408

Post by RandallBrown »

deepsun wrote: post #402
mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

Why wouldn't heat pump work on gas? It's already done -- RV fridges work on propane directly, without converting it to electricity. A fridge is a heat pump.

Apparently they do, but they're not common for houses yet.

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/absorption-heat-pumps

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#409

Post by softbuilder »

jdeibele wrote: post #317
oooyay wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I made this mistake this year. I pumped $20k into a heat pump system, coming from what used to be Natural Gas. I wasn't given any kind of relief because I live in Oregon where most relief is income based. Then at the beginning of the year PGE announced a 20% rate hike. My house is covered in trees, so solar isn't really an option. I really regretted my decision once I got a $300-$400 bill for heating three mont…

I'm moving from Portland to McMinnville in a couple of months. Price of kwh goes from $.1945/kwh to about $.0720. I've noticed that McMinnville Water & Light doesn't help pay for EV connections, etc. compared to Portland General Electric but at almost 1/3rd the cost, they probably don't need to. MW&L is community-owned, PGE is traded on the NYSE. They both buy a ton of hydro from the Bonneville Power Administration.…

IIRC there's also a legacy superfund cleanup charge that PGE customers have the privilege of paying.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#410

Post by marginallen »

epistasis wrote: post #95
readingnews wrote: post #86

I just replaced a furnace... everyone I called for a quote would not touch a heat pump with a 20foot pole, or they wanted prices that were 2X what a separate furnace and AC would cost to install. It was very strange. This is the second home where I had this experience.. basically, they really did not want to install it. I ended up going with gas as no local person would install/warranty a heat pump, or, it was priced…

Your experience is extremely common. Residential HVAC contractors tend to be extremely conservative, and don't adopt new technologies quickly, or even attempt to understand them. I had some flexibility in time in replacing my 50 year old gas furnace, so I was able to call about 8 contractors before I finally found one who was comfortable with the tech and wanted to do it.

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