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Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

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Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#401
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you are saying. I am an engineer-turned-EM and you don't know me, so please take everything I say with a grain of salt: > Your job is NOT safe. Nothing will make execs happier than having this line of thought popularized amongst engineers. It will allow them to hire cheaper, and exploit existing engineers more. I think a better way to put it is: "A job is not your family, and a job is not your identity. Yo…

> Nothing will make execs happier than having this line of thought popularized amongst engineers. It will allow them to hire cheaper, and exploit existing engineers more. Why? The lay-offs are so broad, not selective at all. You're just as likely to get cut if you're working hard or not, if you're overpaid or underpaid. It's completely out of the employee's control, so why would it change the employee's behavior?

> It's completely out of the employee's control, so why would it change the employee's behavior?

Employees don’t have visibility into their peers actual performance. They see a silver of it and infer. This makes layoffs look random. Then, we rely on publicly reported “I was given a great review and still let go!” posts — which are all self-interested. No one wants to hire or refer someone who was doing poorly so there’s an incentive to fib or have selective amnesia.

The whole cohort of folks let go are incentivized to keep up the fiction that it was random.

All things being equal, there is no reason to layoff someone high performing over their less capable peer. I’ve never seen it done randomly, and I’ve sat in these meetings.

This is not to say whole divisions or companies haven’t been let go, but that’s not the same situation here. We’re talking about selective cuts across the entire company where core, or advertising lost some folks, while others remained. That is not random.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it a bit hilarious that programmers feel entitled being employed for life in one company. Did you ever consider finishing the project? Getting it done and delivered? My first paid job as a programmer was like that. We made an exam software for university, a complete package covering the process from authoring test questions to making reports. We made it in 6 months and it was done. Finished. Working. There was…

You’re suggesting that Microsoft should be done with Windows by now, are you?

I'm suggesting that it's up to Microsoft management to decide what software they want to develop, and programmers should expect they are hired to develop a product. Downsizing should be considered a norm.

People came to assume that a total comp >$100k is a norm, but it's really not.

E.g. engineer working on research projects for INRIA in France might get up to $3000 gross a month. (And you might get better job security in France but it comes with a bit of total comp hit, as you see.)

That's the reality for most people on Earth. Salary >$100k should be considered an insane arb opportunity, not a stable job expectation.

Microsoft makes a shitload of money selling Windows to billions of people, and is able to pay a lot to devs? OK, good for those devs. But would that last? Uncertain.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#403

Seriously, why people in tech are opposed to unions? In Europe, unions and Betriebsrat (works committee) are the norm. Why not in the US?

Well, unions tend to average the outcome. But IT positions, being on the top side of the employee distribution, can typically obtain more.

I can give you a real-world example. Our company (Italy) office was relocated, and unions entered negotiations to obtain three days of remote work for the entire personnel. However, I and others refused to sign the agreement because, with more negotiation power, our target was full remote work. However, in doing so, we were undermining the union positions, which made them unhappy. Fortunately, things ended well; all personnel got the three days, and a few other people were granted full remote work.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#404
post #98

I'm surprised to see so many comments here taking layoffs personally, or talking about how layoffs are stupid. Layoffs are not personal, and the corollary to that is that you should never treat your company as a friend. It's a company trying to maximize value. Also, layoffs do work. Almost every large, successful company has done them at some stage. They are an expected, and necessary, part of operating a company and…

A lot of people here have never worked in an economic downturn, and workers WANT to believe their job is more than a job. Why else would they devote so much time and energy to it? It may just even represent their self-worth.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a company has embedded itself so deeply in public life - globally - it's reasonable to have strong feelings about its actions. When we say layoffs work, are we considering the way the same companies overhired just a few years ago, harming the rest of the employment market? Do we remember this in later discussions when we treat these companies as prescient hiveminds, in spite of them using overtuned bang-bang con…

I find it a bit hilarious that programmers feel entitled being employed for life in one company. Did you ever consider finishing the project? Getting it done and delivered? My first paid job as a programmer was like that. We made an exam software for university, a complete package covering the process from authoring test questions to making reports. We made it in 6 months and it was done. Finished. Working. There was…

You are describing contract work... maybe look into it if you like it other people don't and thats also ok.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#406
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? You think they'll outsource work to foreign countries?

They have already started outsourcing to Canada at 60% of the cost. One of my clients outsources all large projects to a company in Ukraine (The HQ is there, but the developers are in other parts of Europe). The time zone isn't too bad, their English/communication is nearly perfect, and it's at a fraction of the cost here in the US. A large year-long project that I was the tech lead on that involved moving our legacy…

So you want us to believe that the same managers who could not manage remote US employees and started crying for return to office will suddenly be able to run a tight ship with overseas freelancers?

Boy, they are in for a treat.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions in Germany aren't really split up by profession, but by industry. So if you e.g. work in the car or manufacturing industry, there's a good chance that most workers in your company are part of "IG Metall", which is the biggest union in Germany. And that union then negotiates the salary & working conditions for every normal employee, even if you aren't part of the union. So if you ever met a developer from Sieme…

As you said, they are only under that umbrella because of the sector. Outside of those companies, there's basically no unions at all in IT/Mostly-IT companies.

Atruvia, 1&1 and SAP have... and they are probably the biggest native german employers.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#408

Two words: managerial accounting. And the lack of this practice across an entire industry. Margins are getting smaller and smaller and the successful companies will use such practices to inform all sorts of decisions, from building in house vs 3rd party vendor, to hiring, to R&D, etc. The days of YOLO moonshots are over for our industry. Of course venture capital will continue to exist but perhaps directed to new ind…

I definitely wouldn’t say the days of YOLO moonshots are completely over (just look at the current level of investment in AI startups). Those days will return when the investment climate is improved, as it was prior to this recession and will be afterwards.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#409
Any thoughts on this is simply a 'pause' because of the unknown.

Corporations hate hiring when going into the unknown time period.

For better or worse, managers don't understand AI, and it is pretty hyped.

There could be hiring freezes just in anticipation of 'some change is coming so we should pause hiring just in case'.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#410
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you can generalize from one manager or even a team of management to all managers in every company. But still your point about the absurd uncertainty of big company roles, even under glowing performance gauntlets as you so aptly say is well taken. you highlight a paradox between the values the company espouses, and the ones they actually keep. In where it appears that, no loyalty is returned to the emplo…

Wait until your manager is laid off and you're talking to them afterward. This has happened to me twice in my career and both times its like you're talking to a whole different person. In my cynical opinion, being that different person is the number 1 trait companies look for when selecting managers

The Stanford prison experiment in action
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