Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

I have a colleague who comes from a culture with a T-V distinction and lives in France where it also exists. But the line we would draw between "toi" and "vous" in French is quite different from his culture: he apparently has a more formal "framework" for T-V and he uses "vous" much more often than others would, so it often creates some distance.

So, T-V distinction is also very cultural in a sense where the line between the two is.

There are a ton of language quirks that have their own name, but aren't prominent enough that they're taught - especially not in your native language, if they're peculiar to it. (In a second language, they often have to be taught, because they stick out and make no sense in the context of your first language).

Phrasal verbs are not typically mentioned when Norwegian kids learn English, because not only do we have them, we typically use them in exactly the same way (e.g "eat up" is the same as "spis opp", "find out" is the same as "finne ut"). No reason to explain an obscure and odd concept if kids do the right thing by default anyway.

"Modal particles", small words that subtly indicate the speaker's certainty or degree of concern, likewise is another strange little grammatical quirk that German has, but Norwegian kids generally don't need a name for since Norwegian has them too and they can mostly just be translated directly.

> The part where you say we are dropping it.

Not quite what I said.

> That is why OP said your statement was false.

There's something ironic here when the nuance of language is lost. Saying something "seems" a certain way is a personal observation. "It seems colder in this room" isn't a false statement if the room is measured and it wasn't actually colder.

> Quebec French seems to be in the process of dropping the formal.

I stand by it. It's an observation from speaking to people. They use 'vous' much less. And it's a comment on the process -- the shift.

> I positively hate it. I can't count the number of times where I heard (roughly): Can I continue speaking with you using "tu"?

I think you're agreeing with me? If situations where the question of whether or not the "formal" is required is becoming less and less inherently obvious, then that's an indicator of the shift. People want to use the comfortable form.

> When I was in high school (10y ago) we were forced to use "vous" when speaking to an adult.

Do you think that younger persons use the form "vous" less and less? Or do you think that they use it just as much as your age group? That's literally the "process" of language -- the younger dictate the rules. Language shifts. And I suspect the high school curriculum is an attempt to 'standardise' and for the 'proper' ways -- but things like the internet and casual speak will work against it. And formal forms may get relegated to professional situations. And, contrary to the poster that said it can seem impolite, I'd argue that one can see the use of the 'formal' forms as "stuck up".

> It’s way less common there than metro/france French.

I think this is actually the statement that could be empirically analyzed if desired. I'm basing it on what metropolitan French speakers say about Quebec French. (eg in the language video).

And since we're talking about "observations of the language" the anecdotes there may be useful.

I noticed a comment that criticized the assertion regarding tu/vous: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzNHyk2JAas&lc=UgzgxoXEIhDXa...) "Wow je suis honnêtement surpris par la fidélité de cette vidéo! Malgré quelques erreurs (notamment qu'on utilise aussi le vous pour parler aux inconnus et parfois même à ses parents/grand-parents, et que tous les Canadiens Français ne sont pas Québécois) tout est véridique, bravo! En plus c'était très divertissant de voir ma culture exposée par un représentant Français qui a fait ses recherches. Il faudrait juste revoir l'imitation de l'accent"

A response: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzNHyk2JAas&lc=UgzgxoXEIhDXa...) "Va en France et tu vas voir que le "vous" est beaucoup plus présent qu'ici. Le vouvoiement est quasi institutionalisé là-bas alors qu'ici c'est un peu laissé chacun pour soi"

And a response to that: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzNHyk2JAas&lc=UgzgxoXEIhDXa...) "En effet, cela dépend beaucoup de la génération et de l'éducation de chacun. Les jeunes ont tendance à tutoyer davantage que les plus âgés. Mes parents (nés dans les années 1920) vouvoyaient leurs parents qui eux se vouvoyaient entre eux. Ma génération (année 60) va tutoyer plus souvent. Je tutoie les plus jeunes mais je vouvoie les plus vieux. Dans les écoles, souvent à l'école primaire les enfants apprennent à tutoyer leurs enseignants. Au secondaire, le vous est habituellement de rigueur. Je suis commis dans un magasin et je vouvoie les clients jeunes ou vieux. Avant d'être commis, j'étais enseignant... maintenant à la retraite. Les jeunes nous approchent souvent en tutoyant... cela me dérange beaucoup. De même, quand je suis client et qu'un commis me tutoie ça m'énerve."

They essentially say that they observe it being used less and less for younger people. That's my observation as well.

So yes, it does seem to me like quebec french is in the process of dropping it. The reduction in usage and relegation to certain settings will be a part of that process. I don't think the "official" language boards get to decide.

We can check back in ...50 years or so?

I'm not entirely convinced. Royal we seems to be its own separate thing, quite restricted in its use at that.

In a general sense yes, but when you're talking about your friend's mom...