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Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

reuters.com

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Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#401

Post by xorcist »

peterfirefly wrote: post #395
xorcist wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think Tesla has a good case here You misunderstand. There is no case. Tesla refuses to negotiate with the labor market, and the labor market refuses to do business with them. They can either get a contract, in which case they are free to do business under contract law, or exit the market. > and are therefore risky places to invest It can certainly be argued that Sweden specifically has lax rule of law around the…

The people who actually work for Tesla do not refuse to do business with Tesla. It's other people who want to exercise their customary (but not really legal) right to extract private taxes who try to force Tesla to comply by sabotaging their business.

This is either a misunderstanding or some sort of conspiracy theory I am unaware of. This is not a question of taxation, unless you are alluding to some "lawyer tax" which is the price of doing business.

Tesla needs a contract with the labor market. It's that simple. Matters of the workplace is mostly under contract law in Sweden, as opposed to civil law. That's unusual internationally, even if all the Nordic countries have similar systems, but it is what it is. Free actors competing in an open market under contract law should be appealing to anyone with a libertarian bent.

The people who actually work for Tesla are car mechanics and it is the union that organizes car mechanics that is the pushing for a contract, so it is certainly people who work there who is behind the strike. They are known by name and give interviews with media, you can fact check everything so there's nothing strange going on.

And certainly nobody wants to sabotage anything. That would be counterproductive. Unions in general has every incentive to help create strong companies who can compete internationally and create as many local jobs as possible. This situation is not different, apart from the fact that they have not even started negotiations yet.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#402

Post by SiempreViernes »

gruez wrote: post #340
SiempreViernes wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If [...] the government [...] forces you to pay taxes [...], you're not being "forced". So far so good. Wat? In a discussion about if someone is being forced to take an action, consider not overloading the string "forced" with several meanings.

Saying something isn't "forced" is the opposite of "overloading the string "forced" with several meanings". Also, in the broader context of this argument, I'm for an more expansive definition of "forced" and replying to someone who thinks whatever the union is doing isn't "forcing" anyone. Therefore I'm actually granting my opponent some leeway. If you think the above circumstance also counts as "forced", that actual…

Sorry, that also doesn't parse into a comprehensible argument shrugs

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#403

Post by that_guy_iain »

noirscape wrote: post #214
felipemnoa wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't think this is tricky at all. If Musk is serious about the fight then I'm sure that for the right price they can find other couriers to meet their needs. Even if they had to pay an order of magnitude more money. It would only be for the short term.

This isn't possible for Tesla because PostNord currently has the exclusive right to deliver license plates - they literally can't hire any other courier company to do it.

They can, they can just face potential legal issues. Which Tesla would claim PostNord is in breach of contract for failing to deliver the license plates. PostNord would claim the right to strike and Tesla should claim it's PostNord's responsibility to find others willing to do the job in the place of striking workers.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#404

Post by oblio »

fallingknife wrote: post #205
cardy31 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that the various unions view Tesla’s actions as a threat to how labour works in Sweden. There apparently isn’t even a minimum wage in the country as everything is governed by these collective agreements. So if they let Tesla come in and not play by the rules it could open the floodgates for other large corporations to come in and do the same, slowly eroding the system.

Yeah I think that's correct. The unions here are not acting as representatives of Tesla workers to negotiate with Tesla, but rather as cartels trying to prevent two willing parties (Tesla and its employees) from doing business without cutting in the union. I had no idea that unions could operate like this. I thought unions were tools to gain workers leverage against their employers, which I obviously support. I find…

So if union do stuff, they should be targeted by anti trust but if companies do it, nothing should happen?

My God, so many people have been taught to have themselves. It's just sad at this point.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#405

Post by oblio »

tacticalturtle wrote: post #298
0xDEF wrote: post #146

Tesla is shooting itself in the foot by not being pragmatic. Norway, Sweden, and Denmark are combined the 3rd biggest market for Tesla. During some months we even edge out China temporarily becoming Tesla's 2nd biggest market. The way our unions are being portrayed by Americans is ridiculous. Even pro-union Americans are making our unions sound far more aggressive and subversive than they actually are. A "blockade" j…

I think there’s just a cultural difference between Sweden and the US into how the postal service is viewed. In the US, the postal service is the OG government service - the power of Congress to create post offices is explicitly called out in the Constitution when it was signed. Further, the US postal service has a mandate to provide mail access to every residential address - even if’s some remote island in Alaska. I…

Frankly, that should be the norm.

If employees are being abused, let them ask for their rights.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#406

Post by dang »

VoxPelli wrote: post #399
dang wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't break the site guidelines like this, no matter how wrong someone is or you feel they are. It isn't in your interest anyhow, since it only discredits your own view. The thing to do, when someone else is wrong, is to respond to incorrect information with true information, and to bad arguments with good arguments. If you don't want to do that or don't have time, that's ok, but please don't substitute for it…

It feels odd to have to provide sources to disprove someone who didn’t provide sources for their claims. That makes it asymmetrically harder to respond to lies than it is to spread them. One should be able to point out that a source-less comment is questionable without having to reference sources oneself.

It's not a question of providing sources. It's about having thoughtful, informative exchange. Your GP comment was the opopsite.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#407

Post by cbeach »

hnbad wrote: post #138
cbeach wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America is in top three nations of the world for wages (OECD 2022). Sweden is 18th. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average...

That's not "wages", that's "average wages". I don't expect much but I at least expect a passing knowledge of statistics and intellectual honesty. If most people have nothing and one billionaire joins the group that doesn't make everyone rather wealthy even if it drastically raises the average. Keep in mind that there was a massive rise in C-level and especially CEO compensation compared to most other wages. Arguably…

Okay then, so you'd prefer to analyse median wages, rather than mean wages?

The US has the 3rd highest median wages, and Sweden has the 14th highest median wage.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-in...

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#408

Post by cbeach »

notaustinpowers wrote: post #59
cbeach wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a country give workers more power? By creating a business-friendly environment. The more companies operate in your country, the more choice of employers. Treated badly? Go work for a competitor. That’s how you put pressure on companies to treat staff better.

Well, we see how that's going in America and it's a race to the bottom. 10 years experience, bachelor's degree required, starting pay of $35k/yr. A society cannot rely on a business whose sole motivation is profitability to provide power to what they view as a liability, not an asset.

It's not up to a company to "provide power" to its employees.

It's up to the company to fulfil its mutually-agreed terms of contract to those employees. Which in most cases means giving them the dignity and security of a monthly paycheque.

In a free market economy (that isn't overly constrained by government and unions), employees can gain all the "power" they like by starting a company of their own, and setting whatever rules they like.

If you're seeking "power" without taking responsbility (i.e. running your own compnany), sounds like you want to indulge in politics, as opposed to a good-faith employee-employer relationship.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#409

Post by cornholio »

VoxPelli wrote: post #399
dang wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't break the site guidelines like this, no matter how wrong someone is or you feel they are. It isn't in your interest anyhow, since it only discredits your own view. The thing to do, when someone else is wrong, is to respond to incorrect information with true information, and to bad arguments with good arguments. If you don't want to do that or don't have time, that's ok, but please don't substitute for it…

It feels odd to have to provide sources to disprove someone who didn’t provide sources for their claims. That makes it asymmetrically harder to respond to lies than it is to spread them. One should be able to point out that a source-less comment is questionable without having to reference sources oneself.

I have no idea what you are talking about. It's well documented the striking employees are not Tesla employees. It's also clear they target Tesla - that's the whole deal with a solidarity strike. Those are the only two factual pieces of information in my comment, they can be easily verified and should be known to most poeple following the topic to the point of requiring no sources.

Everything else in the comment, such as the assessment that the action is politically motivated, is clealry a statements of opinion, not fact. And because my opinions run contrary to your own political convictions, you felt the need for a personal attack.

It's quite audacious to present such an exchange as an issue with sources.

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