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An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

pythonafrica.blogspot.com

401–410 of 423 posts

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Trans women wearing dresses are not cross-dressing. The amount of blatantly open transphobia on these threads makes it much more difficult to engage honestly and to have productive conversations with the people who have good-faith disagreements about safety, cultural standards, and funding policy.

They literally are cross-dressing, not that there is anything wrong with that by default of course.

My point was that for a considerable number of trans-identifying males, the primary motivation for their claims of being women begins in sexual arousal from cross-dressing. You can verify this from reading their forums (the r/AskAGP subreddit is also quite an eye-opener), and some have even written books about it.

It's something to keep in mind when considering how far the polite fiction of 'trans women are women' should be taken, especially when it comes to the rights of women to enjoy single-sex spaces.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The posturing over sexual preference is completely a passive aggressive white western phenomenon whose proponents insist on projecting to other groups whether they are willing to accept the dogma or not or whether they care or not, but simultaneously exclaim the evils of colonialism while not saying a word about your country in public because you're not white. There's an image they have to uphold.

One also assumes that the PSF will be similarly reluctant to sponsor a conference in Orlando/Miami, or Memphis/Nashville, given Florida and Tennessee's rankings as two of the worst states in the country for LGTBQ persons...

I frequent both of those states and it's the same as kabanda1's point: no one cares. There are plenty of LGTBQ people in both, particularly in Nashville, Orlando, Palm Beach, Hollywood (FL), Knoxville, and Miami.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#403
post #168
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That site mostly just looks at legal protections, which don't necessarily say all that much about the "facts on the ground". It also has a few opinion polls, but I don't rate those all that much either. And there can be huge variations within countries, and nuances in what is and isn't considered "bad". There are 61 million people in Tanzania, and it's three times the size of Germany in terms of surface area. It's a…

Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. I agree with the people saying that this is in-effect a wholesale rejection of conferences in Africa, and that we should be mindful of that and work on a compromise. But how is it sensible to expect organizations to act on so-called "facts on the ground"? If those facts haven't already been leveraged to meaningfully affect policy, then there's a burdening question…

For any event or group in the tech sector in the US or Western Europe, having an Equality & Diversity policy and a way to raise complaints and enforceable rules to ban discrimination are basically table stakes. The PyCon community in particular should know this since "donglegate"; whatever one thinks of that incident, the PyCon community in the "west" has since made quite clear that being an inclusive and welcoming environment is as much one of their core values as having python rather than perl as their preferred programming language.

The author of the open letter says that adopting a "human rights plan" (quotes in the original) would "pose a significant legal and personal risk to [the] organisers". Assuming this is true, we have a situation with no easy answer.

I think most people in the python community would agree that an event in a country where making a pro-equality commitment would not pose significant risks to the organisers, absolutely must make such a commitment.

If the choice is between events in Tanzania with no pro-equality statement, and no events in Tanzania at all, I agree that it's a question worth discussing. Should the PyCon policy be "your event must have an equality policy unless you have a good reason not to?"

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans women wearing dresses are not cross-dressing. The amount of blatantly open transphobia on these threads makes it much more difficult to engage honestly and to have productive conversations with the people who have good-faith disagreements about safety, cultural standards, and funding policy.

They literally are cross-dressing, not that there is anything wrong with that by default of course. My point was that for a considerable number of trans-identifying males, the primary motivation for their claims of being women begins in sexual arousal from cross-dressing. You can verify this from reading their forums (the r/AskAGP subreddit is also quite an eye-opener), and some have even written books about it. It's…

> They literally are cross-dressing, not that there is anything wrong with that by default of course.

No they are not, not unless you start from a conclusion that trans women are not women. A woman wearing a dress is not cross dressing.

Of course, you are starting from that conclusion, which.. fine, whatever. Unlike in Tanzania HN will not threaten to imprison you over your beliefs about gender. But the rest of us are not obligated to participate in your rejection of gender identity or to pretend that it is correct for the purposes of our own discussions.

> My point was that for a considerable number of trans-identifying males, the primary motivation for their claims of being women begins in sexual arousal from cross-dressing.

This is a well discussed topic for people who have the curiosity to look more into it, and it's probably not worth debating too deeply given the context of the rest of your comment. But the short version is that gender dysphoria is real and is not a fetish and is well-documented outside of sexual environments. To reduce gender dysphoria to a fetish is medical ignorance.

And of course not every single transgender person experiences gender dysphoria; but regardless of whether or not a particular trans man/woman experiences gender dysphoria, it is still not accurate to reduce their entire gender identity and expression to autogynophilia -- if that instinct is even present to for that non-dysphoric individual to begin with. The fiction you propose assumes that no transgender people exist who are attracted exclusively to the opposite sex or who are asexual, an assumption that is trivially false.

And even in the case of transgender people who are attracted to their own bodies or for whom gender is closely tied to their sexuality or for transgender people who openly identify as autogynophiles, this reduction of their entire gender experience and of the experiences of every other trans person is an inaccurate oversimplification of how gender is processed and expressed. Autogynophila does not mean that every gender expression is sexual or that every other person shares the same experiences. Remember, autogynophila exists in cisgender spaces too, but you don't consider every cisgender woman wearing a dress to be inherently engaging in sexual conduct just because a cisgender lesbian might get aroused at seeing themselves in one.

Sexuality is often used as a cudgel against transgender women in ways that would be considered wildly sexist and inappropriate in any other context. "Critics" demand extreme intimate access to a confusing and sometimes terrifying process of self-discovery, and then they abuse that access and vulnerability to form broad conclusions that they would never dare to suggest about cisgender women, even though the experiences of transgender women are neither unique nor monolithic.

> the polite fiction of 'trans women are women'

Like I said above, these kinds of comments really do distract from more productive conversations on HN; ideally we would be able to discuss topics around conference organizing, pluralism, safety, etc... without constantly being pulled down into low-effort dismissals of transgender identity. The need to debate whether or not a trans woman is a woman doesn't add much to conversations about trans rights and doesn't add much to conversations about the PSF's funding choices, since no one involved in the actual conference planning or funding process has claimed that a debate about the validity of transgender identity was ever a contributing factor in any of the decisions that were made.

Meanwhile, we on HN demand that transgender people speak for themselves or lodge their own complaints while surrounding them in an environment that is often hostile to their participation and input.

> especially when it comes to the rights of women to enjoy single-sex spaces.

Within this world you're imagining, presumably cisgender lesbians don't exist and feminine identity is completely divorced from sexuality. Presumably outside of the presence of men women revert to being completely asexual or something. It's a little silly.

A trans woman wearing a dress is not automatically aroused, and it's both disrespectful and (more importantly) just straight-up inaccurate to automatically jump to that conclusion.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh? So what will you claim exactly when the situation is reversed and you are not free from consequences of your actions? Societal norms are fickle. Are you sure you want rely on those?

No one is free from any and all consequences for their actions. Is this a real question? You may as well accept that your actions have consequences since it is reality. Usually this is a lesson taught to young children while they are still learning to talk.

It absolutely is a real question. I routinely see different standards applied when consequence are on the line and selective enforcement is made based on criteria that make one question the very foundations of the country that is not willing to live up to their espoused ideals.

Since you mention little children, I would be remiss not to point out that kids do pick up on that particular, shall we say, inconsistency rather quick usually to the embarrassment of the adults, who are, after all, in a polite company.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#406
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit chicken and egg though: I would expect that a grant would be much more likely to be granted for an event that had a decent amount of groundwork already done? For new events especially, you'd want to see some commitment.

I'd want to see a plan, for sure. I would, in the place of the PSF folks, not want to be handed a "this is already in motion, and we are depending on funding so you better say yes."

[deleted]

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#407

My guess is that this has much to do with how much they get out of Africa. It seems like they don't see the benefit of funding those conferences. About LBGTQ This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here…

> I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here have no idea what LGBTQ means and those who do don't give a damn.

Counterpoint (quotes from Wikipedia about Tanzania, where the conference was held):

> 95 percent of Tanzanian residents believed that homosexuality is a way of life that society should not accept [2007 survey]

> same-sex sexual acts (even in private and consensual) are criminal offences, punishable with life imprisonment

> On June 19, [2013] Human Rights Watch and the Wake Up and Step Forward Coalition released a report including several detailed allegations of torture and abuse of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) individuals while in police custody.

> In 2018, a so-called "witch hunt" was declared against gay people in Dar es Salaam, where gay men were forced to endure anal examinations and torture.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is free from any and all consequences for their actions. Is this a real question? You may as well accept that your actions have consequences since it is reality. Usually this is a lesson taught to young children while they are still learning to talk.

It absolutely is a real question. I routinely see different standards applied when consequence are on the line and selective enforcement is made based on criteria that make one question the very foundations of the country that is not willing to live up to their espoused ideals. Since you mention little children, I would be remiss not to point out that kids do pick up on that particular, shall we say, inconsistency ra…

Where do your ideas that there are no consequences for what you say come from?

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely is a real question. I routinely see different standards applied when consequence are on the line and selective enforcement is made based on criteria that make one question the very foundations of the country that is not willing to live up to their espoused ideals. Since you mention little children, I would be remiss not to point out that kids do pick up on that particular, shall we say, inconsistency ra…

Where do your ideas that there are no consequences for what you say come from?

US constitution and major free speech cases.

By the way, I reject the consequences framing. Everything has a consequence. I breathe. Oxygen enters my bloodstream. The only question tends to be whether a busybody has too much free time on their hands to undermine basic foundations of this country. And there seem to be so many of those lately.

Related. What government thinks freedom of speech is and is not based on various rulings:

[1]https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-re...

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do your ideas that there are no consequences for what you say come from?

US constitution and major free speech cases. By the way, I reject the consequences framing. Everything has a consequence. I breathe. Oxygen enters my bloodstream. The only question tends to be whether a busybody has too much free time on their hands to undermine basic foundations of this country. And there seem to be so many of those lately. Related. What government thinks freedom of speech is and is not based on var…

Freedom of speech does not include the right:

To permit students to print articles in a school newspaper over the objections of the school administration. Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier, 484 U.S. 260 (1988).

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