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Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

nytimes.com

401–410 of 625 posts

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#401
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, let's stipulate that Sam was maneuvering to get full board control. Then the independent directors were probably worried that -- sooner or later -- Sam would succeed. With Sam fully in charge the non-profit goals would be completely secondary to the commercial goals. This was unacceptable to the independent directors and Ilya and so they ousted Sam before he could oust them? That's a clear motive. Sam and the i…

Besides explaining the haphazardness, that would also nicely explain why they didn't want to elaborate publicly on why they "had" to let him go -- "it was either him or us" wouldn't have been popular given his seeming popularity.

I suspect his popularity is mostly about employees who want to maintain the value of their equity: https://nitter.net/JacquesThibs/status/1727134087176204410#m

Wild guess: If the board stands its ground, appoints a reasonable new CEO, and employees understand that OpenAI will continue to be a hot startup, most of them will stay with the company due to their equity

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#402
post #203

None of the comments thus far seem to clearly explain why this matters. Let me summarize the implications: Sam Altman expelling Toner with the pretext of an inoffensive page ( https://cset.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/CSET-Decoding... ) in a paper no one read* would have given him a temporary majority with which to appoint a replacement director, and then further replacement directors. These directors would, nat…

This is really interesting. It makes perfect sense that they weren't sitting at 6 board members for 9 months because Sam and the others didn't see the implications, but because they saw them all too well and were gridlocked.

But then it gets interesting inferring things from there. Obviously sama and gdb were on one side (call it team Speed), and Helen Toner on the other (team Safety). I think McCauley is with Toner (some connection I read about which I don't remember now: maybe RAND or something?).

But what about D'Angelo and Ilya? For the gridlock, one would have to be on each side. Naively I'd expect tech CEO to be Speed and Ilya Safety, but what would have precipitated the switch Friday? If D'Angelo wanted to implode the company due to conflict of interest, wouldn't he just have sided with Team Safety earlier?

But maybe Team Speed vs Team Safety isn't the same as Team Fire Sam vs Team Don't. I could see that one as Helen, Tasha, and Adam vs Sam, GDB, and Ilya. And, that also makes sense to me in that Ilya seems the most likely to flip for reasons, which also lines up with his regret and contrition. But then that raises the question of what made him flip? A scary exchange with prototype GPT5, which made him weigh his Safety side more highly than his loyalty to Sam?

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#403
Fascinating! Apparently central to the complete farce going on at OpenAI - is this paper by one of the board members:

https://cset.georgetown.edu/publication/decoding-intentions/

It's about - my favourite topic: Costly Signaling!

How curious - that such a topic would be the possible catalyst for one of the most extraordinary collapses of a leading tech company.

Specifically - the paper is about using costly signalling as a means to align (or demonstrate algnment) various kinds of AI interested entities (governments, private corporations, etc) with the public good.

The gist of costly signalling - to try and convince others you really mean what you say - you use a signal that is very expensive to you in some respect. You don't just ask a girl to marry you, you buy a big diamond ring! The idea being - cheaters are much less likely to suffer such expense.

Apparently the troubles at OpenAI escalated when one of the board members - Helen Toner - published this paper. It is critical of OpenAI, and Sam Altman was pissed at the reputational damage to the company and wanted her removed. The board instead removed him. The gist of the paper's criticisms is that while OpenAI has invested in some costly signals to indicate its alignment with AI safety, overall, it judges those signals were ultimately rather weak (or cheap).

Now here is what I find fascinating about all this: up until reading this paper I had found the actions of the OpenAI board completely baffling, but now suddenly their actions make a kind of insane sense. They are just taking their thinking on costly signalling to its logical conclusion. By putting the entire fate of the company and its amazing market position at risk - they are sending THE COSTLIEST SIGNAL possible, relatively speaking: willingness to suffer self-annihilation.

Academics truly are wondrous people... that they can lose themselves in a system of thought so deeply, in a way regular people can't. I can't help but have a genuine, sublime appreciation for this, even while thinking they are some of the silliest people on this planet.

Here's where I feel they went wrong. Costly signals by and large should be without explicit intention. If you are consciously sending various signals that are costly - you are probably a weirdo. Systems of costly signalling work because they are implicit, shared and in many respects, innate. That's why even insects can engage in costly signalling. But these folk see costly signals as an explicit activity to be engaged in as part of explicit public policy - and unsurprisingly, see it riddled with ambiguity. Of course it would be - individual agents can't just make signals up, and expect the system to understand them. Semiotics biatch....

But rather than reflect on this they double down on signalling as an explicit policy choice. How do they propose to reduce ambiguity? Even costlier signals! It's no wonder then they see it as entirely rational to accept self destruction as a possibility. That's how they escape the horrid existential dread of being doubted by the other. In biology though, no creatures survived in the long-run to reproduce where they invested in costly signals that that didn't confer at least as much, if not more benefit to them in excess of what they paid in the first place.

Those that ignore this basic cost-benefit analysis in their signalling will suffer the ignomony of being perceived as ABSOLUTE NUTTERS. Which is exactly how the world is thinking about the OpenAI board. The world doesn't see a group of highly safety aligned AI leaders.

The world sees a bunch of disfunctional crazy people.

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#404
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not cool for companies to try to shut down academic freedom of inquiry in scholarly publishing in order to improve their public image her independence from openai was the nominal reason she was asked to supervise it in the first place, wasn't it

There is a difference between independent from an organization, and someone that takes a public stand against a company. Reading that paper, which I am not really impressed with, they are taking a stance that openai's current trajectory is not as good as a competitor. I bet that if a Microsoft board member wrote a paper how Google search is better than Bing / AWS Better than Azure / OSX better than Windows they would…

Non-profits and for-profits aren't comparable. The latter have a duty to make money. The former has a duty to its mission.

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#405
post #235
post #203

None of the comments thus far seem to clearly explain why this matters. Let me summarize the implications: Sam Altman expelling Toner with the pretext of an inoffensive page ( https://cset.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/CSET-Decoding... ) in a paper no one read* would have given him a temporary majority with which to appoint a replacement director, and then further replacement directors. These directors would, nat…

I mean it's not cool for board members to publicly criticize the company.

What do you mean? Schmidt was on Apple's board for 3 years while he was CEO of Google. Do you think Google did not criticise Apple during that whole time (remember that the CEO is ultimately responsible for the company communications)?

Even more in the case of OpenAI, the board member is on the board of a non-profit, those are typical much more independent and very often more critical of the decisions made by other board members. Just search for board members criticising medical/charity/government boards they are sitting on, there are plenty.

That's not even considering if the article was in fact critical.

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#406

The only specific accusation made in the article is that Sam criticized Helen Toner for writing a paper: https://cset.georgetown.edu/publication/decoding-intentions/ That says Anthropic has a better approach to AI safety than OpenAI. Sam apparently said she should have come to him directly if she had concerns about the company's approach and pointed out that as a board member her words have weight at a time when he w…

"I'm much more interested in how Helen managed to get on this board at all." Indeed. This is far more interesting. How the hell did Helen and Tasha get on, and stay on, the board.

Helen Toner through her association with Open Philanthropy donated $30 Million dollars to OpenAI early on. That's how she got on the board.

https://loeber.substack.com/p/a-timeline-of-the-openai-board

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#407

The only specific accusation made in the article is that Sam criticized Helen Toner for writing a paper: https://cset.georgetown.edu/publication/decoding-intentions/ That says Anthropic has a better approach to AI safety than OpenAI. Sam apparently said she should have come to him directly if she had concerns about the company's approach and pointed out that as a board member her words have weight at a time when he w…

So he criticized her and threatened her board position, and then she orchestrated a coup to oust him? Masterful. Moves and countermoves. You have to applaud her strategic acumen, and execution capability, perhaps surprising given her extensive background in policy/academia. Tho maybe it's as Thiel says (about academia: "The battles are so fierce because the stakes are so small") and that's where she developed her Mac…

> Microsoft can't spend good will erasing the entire board and replacing it,

because they don't have the power to as they do not have any stake in the governing non-profit.

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is obtuse. I didn't make any argument about SA reading the same stuff NRx read, or even reading NRx stuff. I linked SA's own writing that "Many of their insights seem important" and that their views have "nuggets of absolute gold".

"nuggets of gold" implies that the bulk of it is not gold. If reference someone, saying even a broken clock is right twice a day is that really an endorsement?

it would be really surprising if a writer as prolific and literate as moldbug didn't occasionally produce nuggets of gold

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a co-author of that publication was not her performing her role as an OpenAI board member, it was her day job.

Conflicts of interest suck. Experienced board members avoid them or deal with them. They don't allow their conflicts of interest to spiral out of control to the point that they destroy the thing they're supposed to govern.

Did Helen's publication conflict with the charter though?

I'd say the OpenAI employees are the ones with the conflict of interest, since they stand to get rich if the company does well, independent of whether the charter is being upheld.

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#410
post #262

Definitely seems like Helen is emerging as the main leader of the coup, "Ms. Toner disagreed. The board’s mission is to ensure that the company creates artificial intelligence that “benefits all of humanity,” and if the company was destroyed, she said, that could be consistent with its mission. In the board’s view, OpenAI would be stronger without Mr. Altman."

The "leader of the coup" has changed each day. First it was Ilya, then D'Angelo because of Poe, then Toner because he criticized her paper.
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