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Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

especiales.eldiario.es

401–410 of 457 posts

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#401
post #57

Americans have a very skweed view of what apartment living is actually like, in part because the construction of such buildings in America (outside of the ultra-luxury market) is generally terrible. Lumber is abundant in North America and cheap so everything is timber-framed, which is awful for noise. I actually do not understand how people can live in two-story houses in the US. Such people complaining about noise s…

>Lumber is abundant in North America and cheap so everything is timber-framed, which is awful for noise. I actually do not understand how people can live in two-story houses in the US. Such people complaining about noise seems crazy to me. Only drywall separating rooms. Only a plank between floors pretty much. Awful.

I like dumping on American housing standards, but this is completely wrong. Modern US timber framing has fairly thick walls filled with insulation. Some crappy apartments of course skimp on the insulation and you can hear the neighbors, but properly-constructed apartments are quite quiet, because of the insulation between units. In a single-family house, properly-made ones have low-grade noise insulation ("low grade" meaning it has a lower R-value than exterior insulation, because you don't need it between rooms) in the walls between rooms, so kids don't have to hear their parents screwing. "Only a plank between floors"? Please.

>That's 1 concrete framed floor, often commercial and then 5 floors of timber-framed apartments above that. Terrible.

Yeah, try actually spending some time in any decently-constructed modern apartment like this. They're not noisy at all.

Say what you want about the earthquake or fire resistance of buildings like this, but noise is not the problem you think it is.

>Actual high-rises tend to be decent because they have to be concrete and steel framed (although they may have cheap walls).

If they have cheap walls, they're going to have the noise problems you're complaining about. Cheap walls = drywall (on lightweight steel studs) with little or no insulation.

Noise is almost entirely a function of how well insulated the walls in a building are between units, except in places where the units are completely separated by solid concrete. It doesn't matter if it's wood-framed or steel-framed.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that while the shape of single-family home suburbs are meticulously controlled (e.g. minimum width between each house, minimum width from the street to your home), the world of apartments are conversely very lightly regulated. California building codes added an optional appendix for noiseproofing standards for multi-family units that cities can opt-into and yet the cities with some of the strictest/mos…

> California building codes added an optional appendix for noiseproofing standards for multi-family units that cities can opt-into and yet the cities with some of the strictest/most expansive SFH zoning in the Bay Area refuse to opt into this standard. Why am I not surprised? This is why we need more city council members who rent. Renter issues are completely invisible to those holding political power.

I think this is very similar to how city council members generally never ride bicycles, so they don't care about bike-safety issues.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#403
post #72

What's interesting is that the Netherlands is pretty low on the list of countries with the highest percentage of people in collective dwellings (at 21% vs Spain's 65%, only the UK is lower), even though it's one of the most densely populated countries in Europe. I suppose that's the result of the mentioned "mushroom neighbourhoods"? Great visuals btw.

That list was basically picking and choosing countries to list so wasn't that great of an indicator. For instance China nor Singapore was listed...

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#404
2021:

> Techniques/technologies used:

R, Rstudio, QGIS and Tippecanoe for data compiling and data analysis. D3.js and Javascript for data visualization. Mapbox for mapping buildings footprint. HTML, Javascript and Scrollama for scroll webpage

https://sigmaawards.org/spain-lives-in-flats-why-we-have-bui...

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#405
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure about Spain, but in Italy, you definitely find a lot of 'family size' flats. We had a 3-bedroom, 2-bathroom flat in a 6-plex, and that is a pretty common sort of living arrangement.

What's the area of those flats? Where I live there are plenty of 3 bedroom flats, but they are usually under 100 m^2 (often smaller) and almost always under 150 m^2. 3 bedrooms in 100 m^2 is pretty cramped.

I live in Spain in a 85m2 [1] and it isn't cramped in term of room sizes. In fact my 2 daughters decided to live in the same bedroom which meant I could convert one to an office since I am working remotely. Having said that 100m2 would give us access to a second bathroom which would be nice considering there are 3 girls living in the same place. 150m2 would be overkill for 3 bedrooms, I guess it would be more a space for 4 bedrooms or 3 bedroom and a dedicated office.

[1] caveat is it is not an appartment but a townhouse with a commercial space in the main floor. It give me exclusive use to another 85m2 rooftop space with a washing machine there so I don't have to dry clothes in the living room + exclusive use of the stairway where I store our 8 bicycles and the standup paddle. But I would say that if I didn't have those extra space I would just not have so many bicycles and things and would hang the clothes to dry hanging at the windows like everybody does.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#406
post #392
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is 100m^2 really considered cramp for a 3 bedroom? Admittedly I'm from the uk which is famed for our small home sizes. But I've been looking at 2 or 3 beds recently and anything over 80m^2 felt huge.

In my opinion it is. Those would have to be very small bedrooms. I lived in a 180 m^2 3 bedroom (well 2 bed and 1 office) and it seemed about the right size for a family. I've also lived in a 60 m^2 2 bedroom and it was cramped.

If I have more space I'd rather have an aditionnal room, a bigger kitchen and a second bathroom than bigger bedrooms.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#407
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Midnight! Just when even the Spanish are trying to get to sleep. I had to chuckle when reading this, although I would point out that not all neighbourhoods are the same. Still, every spaniard knows that trying to call the local police because there is some idiot throwing a party at 1AM is pointless.

This was midweek in the autumn after the bars had all shut & everyone had gone home. It might even have been a bit later! Either way, my point is that it was the worst possible time to be upending bins full of glassware in a residential area. That noise was far louder than the people in the bars had been an hour earlier.

The actual truck that collect those glasses pass between 2 to 4am. What does it do? It lift the glass collection tank and let the glass fall into the truck bed. So yes I don't think anyone cares that someone if binning some glassware one hour before the truck will do that same noise at much higher scale.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#408
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that immigrants are a good idea because they do labour your existing population won't do is quite socially destructive and the cause of technological stagnation. It separates people into a de facto caste system where unpleasant jobs are also underpaid, prevents automation from becoming cost effective, and can block a country from reaping the benefits of skilled migration.

I didn't mean to assign a value judgement to this -- maybe I can phrase it better. It's not that the "local" people don't want to do certain jobs, it's that the capital owners are not willing to pay fair wages for labour, and then only people who are desperate enough (poor immigrants) end up doing do these jobs. I'd love to hear some examples where this has caused technological stagnation and blocked skilled migratio…

The one I was thinking of was slavery in the US, and the technological innovation in the south vs the north.

A better example might be the low price of labour-intensive hand-picked fruit (particularly berries) in the US and the correspondingly low agricultural automation. It's not that machines don't exist, or that berry picking is going to prevent the next Facebook, it's that they aren't cost effective in the short to mid term even when longer term investment would eventually improve the whole industry. This is really hard to measure and I don't have any good sources for either side of the argument right now.

I also want to make a distinction between skilled and unskilled migration. I don't think skilled migration is harmful to the social fabric in an enduring way, nor migration with the same proportion of skilled and unskilled labour as the host country.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Spanish love the noise is my theory. They are a very social people. They probably think of it as comforting versus annoying, and like the person that lives next to the waterfall that can't hear it, it probably fades into the background of their consciousness. (I lived in Spain for two years.)

Each American men bears a hat with mouse ears and every American woman is dressed as Cinderella. They hear Disney music all the time while letting children to take selfies with them. Is a very strange place. Or maybe I have a very stereotyped, very local experience that came from going mostly where all the other tourists go. and I'm wildly extrapolating from here about the rest of the country. Maybe the older houses…

> But now visit any small village in Castilla; most of the time you could hear an atom crashing against the soil.

Same in small white villages in Andalucía. That is because they are populated mostly by old people that spend their day in front of their TV and barely want to walk anywhere. But once every 30 minutes whole village is woken up by the local teenager, the scream of his moped echoing in all the narrow streets. And if some people are talking you bet they are all shouting at each other.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#410

It's funny how everyone complains about other people being loud when living in flats. Does no one here like to bang on electric guitar or blast karaoke with friends until 3AM?

I love to wood work late into the night. Even in a suburb my neighbors would have eaten me alive. I really enjoy my 20 acres.

As a Spaniard who has lived in California for the last five years, this is what I miss most about being back in Spain. However, the ability to go without using a car unless I'm leaving the city—managing a month or more on just my bike and feet—definitely makes up for it.
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