Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off • Hacker News Board

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#401

Post by dilyevsky » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:37 PM UTC

tomcam wrote: post #261

Fischgericht wrote: post #254

In any case anyone wants to read about a EU perspective: Over here in Germany the "trick" of doing an asset deal to get rid of employees (and any benefits they may have earned over time) is very risky, and can fire back massively. It's not a black-and-white thing, but the labor courts have check-lists: - Are people at the new company work on the same tasks as they did in the old one? - Are people at the new company s…

Super informative. I must reveal my bias toward a free market here, but I also remember keenly what it was like to be a powerless employee. Germany appears to have by far the strongest economy in the EU but with higher unemployment than the USA. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the balance there vs the USA? I can imagine compelling arguments for each approach.

You should read about Germany’s ridiculously high unemployment numbers of the early 2000s and how Schroeder got rid of it by basically getting rid of bunch of labor protections. All to say there are two sides to this coin

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#402

Post by bigbacaloa » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:41 PM UTC

tomcam wrote: post #261

Fischgericht wrote: post #254

In any case anyone wants to read about a EU perspective: Over here in Germany the "trick" of doing an asset deal to get rid of employees (and any benefits they may have earned over time) is very risky, and can fire back massively. It's not a black-and-white thing, but the labor courts have check-lists: - Are people at the new company work on the same tasks as they did in the old one? - Are people at the new company s…

Super informative. I must reveal my bias toward a free market here, but I also remember keenly what it was like to be a powerless employee. Germany appears to have by far the strongest economy in the EU but with higher unemployment than the USA. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the balance there vs the USA? I can imagine compelling arguments for each approach.

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Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#403

Post by bigbacaloa » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:42 PM UTC

hipadev23 wrote: post #22

Animats wrote: post #10

It's illegal.See "Discriminating against employees because of their union activities or sympathies" [1] Enforcement is weak, but it's illegal. [1] https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/di...

They just acquired the company two weeks prior and layoffs are extremely common after one.

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Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#404

Post by gosub100 » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:49 PM UTC

vwoolf wrote: post #268

nabla9 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American unions are not like European unions. In Europe sectoral unions and sectoral bargaining is the norm. In the US federal law does not allow that. Each firm must unionize individually. In the US unions and enterprices play zero sum game against each other. If the firm unionizes, the firm loses relative to non-unionized competition. Example: the current UAW (United Auto Workers) dispute in the US. If UAW wins, un…

Perhaps union infestations help explain Europe's sclerotic economic performance, relative to the U.S.'s: https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/at-least-five-interesting-thin...

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Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#405

Post by randomdata » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:50 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #54

hipadev23 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They just acquired the company two weeks prior and layoffs are extremely common after one.

I don't think anyone is too worried about the layoffs, but these look like targeted layoffs, reinforcing the notion that union members / representatives are troublesome. At the very least, for the sake of optics, they shouldn't have fired the union reps. Not all of them anyway.

Is it not likely that those most vested in unionization, particularly those who want to take on greater union roles, are those who already recognize that their job is in a more precarious position?

If you recognize yourself as an important player in the organization, with a strong individual bargaining position, it seems likely that unionization would be seen as less pressing. Such a person may be willing to join a union in effect, but doesn't have the same kind of incentive to make a union happen.

It is certainly not surprising that the more precarious jobs are the first to go.

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#406

Post by dumpsterlid » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:51 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #363

gruez wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's probably a performance component as well. If you're high performing, can pick whatever job they want, and therefore get paid well above your peers, why would want to join a union?

Because union representation isn't just about pay?

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Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#407

Post by lowbloodsugar » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:51 PM UTC

tomcam wrote: post #261

Fischgericht wrote: post #254

In any case anyone wants to read about a EU perspective: Over here in Germany the "trick" of doing an asset deal to get rid of employees (and any benefits they may have earned over time) is very risky, and can fire back massively. It's not a black-and-white thing, but the labor courts have check-lists: - Are people at the new company work on the same tasks as they did in the old one? - Are people at the new company s…

Super informative. I must reveal my bias toward a free market here, but I also remember keenly what it was like to be a powerless employee. Germany appears to have by far the strongest economy in the EU but with higher unemployment than the USA. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the balance there vs the USA? I can imagine compelling arguments for each approach.

What is this "free market" you describe? Am I free to occupy any building I like, or does your "free" market include a concept of a "property" and entire government bureaucracies and men with guns to enforce such concepts? Does your "free market" make a distinction between "I expect this property to still be mine tomorrow" and "I expect this job to still be mine tomorrow"?

Does you "free market" allow for individuals to "organize" as a "corporation" and does the "corporation" provide legal immunities for civil liabilities and personal debts (that "personal property" concept).

If so does your "free market" allow for other individuals to "organize" as a "union" - and does that "union" provide various legal guarantees and immunities etc.

"Free market" people love the corporation but hate the union. One is a legal fiction for rich people and one is a legal fiction for poor people.

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#408

Post by greenie_beans » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:53 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #386

greenie_beans wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If UAW wins, unionized enterprises lose to Tesla. how does that work?

> how does that work? Their costs are higher. (So far, I haven't seen evidence of higher productivity among unionized auto workers sufficient to make up for the cost gap.)

i don't see how uaw bargaining is good for tesla. that just sounds like capitalist logic with unsubstantiated data. wouldn't higher wages at a ford factory will force telsa to match those wages if they want to be competitive in the labor market?

maybe the owning class should take less profit so the consumer doesn't have to take on that extra cost, but unfortunately the incentive structure of capitalist enterprise doesn't work like that.

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#409

Post by whyoh » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:53 PM UTC

sspiff wrote: post #320

sickcodebruh wrote: post #209

For some context, it’s important to understand the degree to which Bandcamp’s success and ubiquity with independent music is built on a people-first, anti-corporate culture. Bandcamp is an obsession for a very large and engaged segment of the independent music world. A good friend, a professional musician, told me “I feel like I’m watching my childhood home burn to the ground.” This is far from a unique sentiment. Pe…

I was wondering why noone had started a bandcamp alternative as I read this article. Bandcamp isn't a complicated product. It's the people and content that define its value. If trust and goodwill are eroded, then the platform loses its value. Glad to see an independent initiative in this space.

IndieHD (https://indiehd.com/) has been around for almost as long as Bandcamp.

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#410

Post by ImPostingOnHN » Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 4:56 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #370

noelherrick wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do some of the most highly-paid people (actors) join a union and join the picket line? Even if you are high performing, joining up with other workers increases your bargaining position. Why did Steve Jobs join up with Adobe to stop poaching when they were highly sought after work places? Because even if you're a behemoth, you can be stronger in a union.

>Why do some of the most highly-paid people (actors) join a union and join the picket line? Even if you are high performing, joining up with other workers increases your bargaining position. Perhaps, but there's also a real chance that the union structure you end up with ends up being net negative for top earners. If you're in the top 10%, what makes you think the bottom 90% won't vote for policies that end up redist…

> If you're in the top 10%, what makes you think the bottom 90% won't vote for policies that end up redistributing your wages to them?

We already have the bottom 10% (executives) doing that. We would need evidence to be convinced that your scenario would plausibly happen if workers had more power and executives less.