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Why scalpers can get tickets

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Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#401

Post by TeMPOraL »

bscphil wrote: post #399
TeMPOraL wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately Ticketmaster is owned by LiveNation, and they are far and away the biggest promoter. They sign exclusive rights with large venues. My local 25,000 seat amphitheater has a deal with LiveNation. I can only get tickets to shows there through Ticketmaster. So mostly what GP said. This is not an accident, and everyone is in on it.

I don't think it's the same at all - the crucial point of difference is whether artists deserve to get blamed for this situation. Various people in the thread have claimed that they do, that they're receiving kickbacks from scalping or a portion of Ticketmaster fees on resales, but your parent comment claims that this is not the case and misrepresents the ticket sale structure. I think that's a critical difference, b…

I understood there is no difference between what the comment I replied to is describing and what its parent is, because of the (brought by others elsewhere in the thread) fungibility of money. Whether the artists get their cut directly, or just enjoy cheaper venues because Ticketmaster happens to be owned by the same party that owns the venue, that's literally the same benefit - just instead of being paid directly, the artists get their expenses covered. That's my understanding of what's going on with plenty of those deals.

Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#402

Post by mattmaroon »

smugcentrist wrote: post #265
mattmaroon wrote: post #237

I have some recent experience in live events and I can tell from the comments here that most people don't understand how the economics work. Don't feel bad, I didn't either until I was involved. It's... confusing. We all think that when Major Band goes on tour, they just rent a bunch of big arenas and sell tickets. If you think that, a lot of the comments about the bands getting paid by TicketMaster make sense, but t…

It would seem that to some extent this ultimately does lead to Major Band getting paid by Ticketmaster though, albeit through indirect means. Let's say a show is going to generate $1M in profit for LiveNation/Ticketmaster because of the fees and the reselling but would only make $250K without, the promoter (who because of monopoly is also the ticket seller) is going to be much more willing and able to offer Major Ban…

Yeah, I suppose that’s true, but also Major Band is up against the same near-monopoly because there aren’t many promoters bidding for their shows. When you get to the level where you can sell out 20,000 seats, over 2/3 of the promotion is exclusively LiveNation.

I guess that’s technically a near -monopsony. Bands would probably argue they’d make more if promotion was itself a functioning market.

Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#403

Post by mattmaroon »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #374
mattmaroon wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not how concerts work, and artists and producers don't get any money from Ticketmaster fees. In most cases, a promoter pays an artist a flat fee to perform. The promoter then markets the show and gets the ticket sales, and Ticketmaster gets Ticketmaster fees. Unfortunately Ticketmaster is owned by LiveNation, and they are far and away the biggest promoter. They sign exclusive rights with large venues. My loca…

> Unfortunately Ticketmaster is owned by LiveNation, and they are far and away the biggest promoter. They sign exclusive rights with large venues. My local 25,000 seat amphitheater has a deal with LiveNation. I can only get tickets to shows there through Ticketmaster. So mostly what GP said. This is not an accident, and everyone is in on it.

Definitely not an accident, no.

Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#404

Post by mattmaroon »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #401
bscphil wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's the same at all - the crucial point of difference is whether artists deserve to get blamed for this situation. Various people in the thread have claimed that they do, that they're receiving kickbacks from scalping or a portion of Ticketmaster fees on resales, but your parent comment claims that this is not the case and misrepresents the ticket sale structure. I think that's a critical difference, b…

I understood there is no difference between what the comment I replied to is describing and what its parent is, because of the (brought by others elsewhere in the thread) fungibility of money. Whether the artists get their cut directly, or just enjoy cheaper venues because Ticketmaster happens to be owned by the same party that owns the venue, that's literally the same benefit - just instead of being paid directly, t…

Artists don’t pay for venues, promoters do, so they’re not cheaper, but your point that Ticketmaster has more revenue (and thus more to pay the artist) so they may get paid more indirectly is valid. But also, Ticketmaster has a monopsony. Or nearly so. One might argue (and many artists have ) that the artists would get paid more if there were a market for their tour rather than one company owning the vast majority of large venues.

The only things I’m sure of are that A. consumers would benefit if there was an actual market and B. It is hard to imagine one happening without government intervention.

Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#406

Post by iambateman »

WhyNotHugo wrote: post #382
arcticbull wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, TicketMaster/Live Nation is fully vertically integrated. They own venues, they manage artists, they sell merch - and yes they run the ticket platforms. The contracts basically require everything to stay in the family.

Sounds like theres a lot of missing legislation. The situation creates a huge conflict of interests. Then again, scalping itself out to be illegal; it’s just a form of exploiting someone else’s work to extract money from average folk without creating any value or meaningful work.

Scalping is exploitative and should be illegal when it’s for water and gasoline in a hurricane recovery zone.

I’m unconvinced that there is a harm when the scalping is for section 102 row 14 seat 11 at a OneDirection concert.

Lots of people want to vacation in Ibiza, so it’s expensive. Lots of people want to sit in section 102 row 14 seat 11, so it’s expensive too.

Just because someone with more money buys the seat doesn’t mean the person with less money was exploited. If that were the case, we must require all seats to be sold at the exact same price across the stadium and that price must be low enough for even the poorest person to attend.

Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#407

Post by nojvek »

> As I’ve tried to point out in my reporting over the years, scalpers and Ticketmaster are engaged in a neverending game of cat-and-mouse, but the more difficult Ticketmaster ostensibly makes it to buy tickets, the easier it is for dedicated professionals to buy them while fans are left disappointed.

Almost seems like Ticketmaster allowing resale of tickets creates a secondary marketplace where Ticketmaster earns twice for fees, and the resellers make a big buck on market inefficiencies.

Perhaps artist should either decide whether they want to sell tickets at a fixed price or at an auction.

If fixed price, then it’s first come first serve, no reselling. If bid, then it’s whoever pays the highest. No reselling.

Airline tickets aren’t allowed to be resold. Name must match ID. Prices are dynamic. No reason why concert prices couldn’t be the same.

Or 50/50 fixed vs bid.

In general auctions seem the fairest in any marketplace where the price is an indicator of supply vs demand.

However not fair because artist gives an impression they’re only there for the rich turning some of their fans away.

—-

But I legit dislike Ticketmaster. Their ridiculous fees and dark patterns UI infuriate me. The best I can do is vote with my wallet.

Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#408

Post by nojvek »

TrackerFF wrote: post #358

Here in Norway we had a go at the problem by making it illegal to charge more for tickets to sports and cultural events, than what they cost new. You can take the seller to small-claims court and sue the seller for the difference.

That’s a beautiful law if it can be enforced well.

Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#409

Post by dazc »

fragmede wrote: post #392
dazc wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people buy stuff everyday that they never actually use. Why should tickets be sacred?

Because artists don't want to play to an empty room. Even for a lot of money.

I doubt there would be that many no-shows, demand for tickets far outweighs supply (usually). People who were making causal purchasing choices hitherto may be more cautious as a result, that's all.

Re: Why scalpers can get tickets

#410

Post by Retric »

lolinder wrote: post #319
Retric wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extra transactions mean extra credit card fees, the artists would strictly be better off with demand based pricing. Ticketmaster however gets to double dip and play contract shenanigans. As a general rule more complex contracts favor the side with more experience. For example many people get hosed when leasing a car, there’s simply more levers a dealership can adjust to favor themselves.

You're looking at this from a strictly monetary lens, but the entertainment industry lives and dies on reputation. It's worth a lot of money to have someone else take the fall for the inevitable results of high demand. Ticketmaster's one job is to launder the artist's reputation. They find ways to milk the show for more money than fans think is fair and keep a chunk of that extra cash as their fee, which from the art…

That’s a common theory, but artists like Taylor Swift are willing to take the blame and avoid Ticketmaster.

Ticketmaster has a monopoly position and is exercising monopoly power here.

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