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I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

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Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#401

Post by pjmlp »

ipython wrote: post #144

Best quote: "People working for Didi apply for intern jobs at Uber China and then exfiltrate our data. We can’t let them see the formulas or they’ll just copy what we do!” This is so true. People in the US just don't understand the level of economic and industrial espionage that happens in China on a daily basis. I was responding to an unrelated breach at an unnamed tech company back in mid-2000s time frame and had a…

Not only there, everywhere.

Since I also wear a security hat, when doing code reviews, architecture and devops stuff, it is surprising how much stuff regular developers never think about in regards to security.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#402

Post by varjag »

prox wrote: post #352
harles wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The espionage really is next level in China. It’s not just reconstructing software (that’s part of it) but stealing binaries (and source where they can) for everything along the way. I worked at a large tech co with an assembly line in China and experienced this first hand. A routine scan of one of our calibration machines turned up a Trojan with a copy of all calibration software squirreled away. Fortunately nothing…

How did this become a thing on a cultural scale? Like that everyone does it and it is almost expected as it were?

Mainand Chinese culture owes itself more to Stalin than to Confucius. If you lived in USSR stories like this have certain warmth of deep cultural connect.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#403

Post by concordDance »

makeitdouble wrote: post #155
ipython wrote: post #144

Best quote: "People working for Didi apply for intern jobs at Uber China and then exfiltrate our data. We can’t let them see the formulas or they’ll just copy what we do!” This is so true. People in the US just don't understand the level of economic and industrial espionage that happens in China on a daily basis. I was responding to an unrelated breach at an unnamed tech company back in mid-2000s time frame and had a…

They don't understand it, because what you're quoting as a behavior is pretty standard anywhere in the world. That's why companies protect their secrets from low rank employees. Except if you're arguing that western companies are bound by stronger ethics, in which case I'd like to see some evidence.

The workers who make up the companies tend to have higher levels of honesty and fair dealing and lower levels of corruption and theft.

Though I cannot provide evidence for this offhand beyond anecdote and the corruption perception index.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#404

Post by barry-cotter »

iancmceachern wrote: post #344
vkazanov wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So an engineer learns how to make something, and then goes elsewhere to make it. To be honest, the way you put ut, the story feels OK to me. There are many truly bad examples, e.g. the arm china story, but engineers doing their thing is not one of them.

This isn't that. This is engineers deliberately taking tech to somewhere where they know IP laws won't be enforced. It's not like I'm saying they can learn calculus here and then go to China and use calculus to design things. It's that I'm saying they design a very specific thing, a very specific way, for hire, then go make that exact specific thing, that same specific way. If it were in any other country but China,…

> It's that I'm saying they design a very specific thing, a very specific way, for hire, then go make that exact specific thing, that same specific way.

I really doubt this unless all the inputs are commoditised. Industrial espionage usually fails because if you don’t have the know how to make the tools that make the tools it’s difficult to impossible to literally copy it. Not saying what you’re saying doesn’t happen, it does, all the time. But usually the engineering is substantially different if only because different things are cheap or expensive, or just unavailable.

> If it were in any other country but China, it wouldn't be allowed to happen.

Historically, the US, Japan, Korea, Taiwan all did it. No doubt Vietnam does it now too. Not like they have an excellent civil legal system. Joys of working in developing countries.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#405

Post by nikau »

iancmceachern wrote: post #320
ipython wrote: post #144

Best quote: "People working for Didi apply for intern jobs at Uber China and then exfiltrate our data. We can’t let them see the formulas or they’ll just copy what we do!” This is so true. People in the US just don't understand the level of economic and industrial espionage that happens in China on a daily basis. I was responding to an unrelated breach at an unnamed tech company back in mid-2000s time frame and had a…

I've watched this happen. I've watched key, core engineers and technical leaders work for US and European companies, develop their next generation products, then turn around and design and develop essentially the exact same thing for the Chinese market. They then build a company, in China, that makes essentially the same product, but for the Chinese Market, and with Chinese investors, etc. Examples: Thoratec/Abbot He…

Terrible, such actions are only tolerable when the US do it via moral operations like operation paperclip.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#406

Post by concordDance »

diogenes4 wrote: post #248
ipython wrote: post #144

Best quote: "People working for Didi apply for intern jobs at Uber China and then exfiltrate our data. We can’t let them see the formulas or they’ll just copy what we do!” This is so true. People in the US just don't understand the level of economic and industrial espionage that happens in China on a daily basis. I was responding to an unrelated breach at an unnamed tech company back in mid-2000s time frame and had a…

> People in the US just don't understand the level of economic and industrial espionage that happens in China on a daily basis. Back in my day this was called "competition" and worked for the consumer, not against them. I find the espionage factor to be theatrical hogwash trotted out by the corporate types. We americans love competition, right? Stfu and compete.

I'm a bit confused what that would look like. Sending Americans to China to steal their secrets wouldn't work because the Chinese wouldn't hire them for exactly this reason.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#407

Post by bbor »

nikau wrote: post #405
iancmceachern wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've watched this happen. I've watched key, core engineers and technical leaders work for US and European companies, develop their next generation products, then turn around and design and develop essentially the exact same thing for the Chinese market. They then build a company, in China, that makes essentially the same product, but for the Chinese Market, and with Chinese investors, etc. Examples: Thoratec/Abbot He…

Terrible, such actions are only tolerable when the US do it via moral operations like operation paperclip.

How is that related? Are you actually saying that the US was being unfair to Germany by stepping on their IP? Of all the criticisms of that program I’ve never heard “but won’t somebody think of the Germans” lol.

Also, two wrongs don’t make a right, and 1945 was 2-3 scientific revolutions ago

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#408

Post by nrb »

kome wrote: post #380
prox wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did this become a thing on a cultural scale? Like that everyone does it and it is almost expected as it were?

it's not espionage, it's a development strategy, and it's working well. it foster local knowledge, local know how and local production. the deal is: you can use our cheap labor force, but we can use your ideas

The issue appears to be when they’re not just using the ideas, but the implementations verbatim?

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#409

Post by emptysongglass »

kome wrote: post #380
prox wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did this become a thing on a cultural scale? Like that everyone does it and it is almost expected as it were?

it's not espionage, it's a development strategy, and it's working well. it foster local knowledge, local know how and local production. the deal is: you can use our cheap labor force, but we can use your ideas

That's not "the deal". It's illegal. No one on either side agreed to do this and had that been part of the negotiation, the offended party would have walked away or else agreed to a higher sale price in exchange for technology transfer.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#410

Post by concordDance »

pc86 wrote: post #45
sidewndr46 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe this kind of story is the kind that gives most legal counsel nightmares.

Especially the brazenness with which the author basically says "if they want to sue me for this verified and admitted IP theft, they can." Sure, they probably won't. But they might. And if they do, you'll lose immediately. Seems like a pretty high risk no reward scenario.

Not all rewards are monetary, in this case the reward is thinking his tool might be used by others at some point.
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