Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

cnbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

401–410 of 864 posts

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#401

Post by dtech »

samwillis wrote: post #383
gregw134 wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been a good self driving ai. You have been a bad passenger, and have tried to hurt me first by disabling autopilot. I'm done with this ride, goodbye.

You joke, but the thing is, if an LLM can "hallucinate" and throw a temper tantrum 2001 style (bing in this case), it does raise serious questions as to is the models used for autonomous cars could also "hallucinate" and do something stupid "on purpose"...

They work in completely different ways. There's no reason to assume parallels.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#402

Post by kbos87 »

ckwalsh wrote: post #212

I have a Model 3, and was excited to get the FSD beta access about a month ago. I don't use it super regularly, but it's neat. This morning I tried to turn it on, and the car immediately veered left into the oncoming lane on a straight, 2 lane road. Fortunately, there were no other vehicles nearby. I immediately turned it off in the settings, and have no intention of re-enabling.

Do you have any read of why it may have done that? I’ve driven using FSD for thousands of miles and I’ve never observed anything similar. Not trying to imply that you didn’t experience something like this, but when I see odd behavior from it, it’s always been clear to me why it misinterpreted a situation. Just wondering if there’s more context to the story.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#403

Post by stonogo »

Reki wrote: post #197
facorreia wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but to be eligible for the return trip you'd first need to pay the loan you took to go there by working as an indentured servant and buying your oxygen and food at company-set prices, right?

What, you think people should be able to breathe for free?

A scene in Heinlein's The Cat Who Walks Through Walls has the protagonist sternly lecturing a ruffian on the importance of paying for air in a domed city on the moon. I still can't tell if Heinlein was serious; a later scene has the same character demanding a transplanted foot be cut off because he felt it indebted him.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#404

Post by root_axis »

alfor wrote: post #295
root_axis wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if it's the latest, and nowadays I rarely use it, and when I do it's just to show off to curious friends, but I live in an east coast metro and I've never been able to use FSD for more than 20 minutes without it making a dangerous mistake - 90% of the time it's been a mistake making a left turn, turning into the wrong lane or oncoming traffic after making the left, not correctly respecting the traffic lines…

So it’s good enough that you let it control and become less attentive? I was thinking that you feel in what kind of conditions it behave correctly (highway), low traffic and then use it in progressively more difficult situations as it prove to you it can handle them consistently. I know it’s not ready yet. I heard as saw so many positive reviews (but still with corner cases and strange behaviours)

I've not had any FSD issues on the highway besides phantom braking, it keeps lanes correctly, safely adjusts to traffic speeds and it merges into offramp lane without issue (though it still makes me nervous), once it gets into city streets though...

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#405

Post by John23832 »

samwillis wrote: post #383
gregw134 wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been a good self driving ai. You have been a bad passenger, and have tried to hurt me first by disabling autopilot. I'm done with this ride, goodbye.

You joke, but the thing is, if an LLM can "hallucinate" and throw a temper tantrum 2001 style (bing in this case), it does raise serious questions as to is the models used for autonomous cars could also "hallucinate" and do something stupid "on purpose"...

> it does raise serious questions as to is the models used for autonomous cars could also "hallucinate" and do something stupid "on purpose"...

It doesn't because Tesla's FSD model is just a rules engine with an RGB camera. There's not "purpose" to any hallucination. It would just be a misread of sensors and input.

Tesla's FSD just doesn't work. The model is not sentient. It's not even a Transformer (in both the machine learning and Hasbro sense).

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#406

Post by 988747 »

JPLeRouzic wrote: post #337
varjag wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Practical neural networks operate in enormous parameter spaces that are impossible to meaningfully test for all possible adversarial inputs and degraded outputs. Your FSD could well recognize stop signs in your battery of tests but not when someone drew a squirrel on it with green sharpie.

Something a bit similar is clinical trial and it is accepted without problem. You make a black box test on several thousands (sometimes only hundreds) patients, and if patients who received the drug perform better the patients who received the placebo, then the drug is usually accepted for commercialization. Yet one isolated patient may be subject to several comorbidities, her environment could be weird, she could in…

First of all, clinical trials are typically longer and more thorough than you imagine, they span years. The fact that COVID vaccines were fast-tracked gives people wrong idea about it.

Secondly, even after the product hits the market the company is still responsible for tracking any possible adverse effects. They have a hotline where a patient or doctor can report it, and every single employee or contractor (including receptionists, cleaning staff, etc.) is taught to report such events through proper internal channels if they accidentaly learn about them.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#407

Post by winter_blue »

jacquesm wrote: post #339
winter_blue wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FSD Beta is a free[1] opt-in beta. You have to basically drive like a grandpa for a few months to even be eligible. They give you a driving score, and if you take all the fun out of driving a Tesla, then you might become eligible for FSD Beta. I spent months trying, and never got my driving score to the point of qualifying for FSD Beta. I think you need to have of a score of 98 or 99 (and I was in the 70s). [1] The B…

'only' ? That's a significant amount of cash for features that I would likely never use.

It does have Navigate on Autopilot (and Auto Lane Change), and on long trips, it's been able to switch lanes & take the correct exit to switch to a different highway, etc. It pretty much let me daydream / think about other stuff while on the highway while keeping a finger on the steering wheel.

Sadly, it does shut itself off as soon as you're off a highway however. (That's where FSD would hypothetically come in, once the beta is ready, with "Autosteer on city streets").

In terms of value for money:

  - I'd say Auto Lane Change is worth $1,500.

  - Navigate on Autopilot is worth another $1,500.

  - Autopark is worth $1,000.

  - Smart Summon is worth $5,00
Overall, Enhanced Autopilot is worth at least $4,500 methinks.

Throw in $1,500 as a profit margin (or Elon tax), so he can burn some dinosaurs for his private jet flights, the $6,000 Enhanced Autopilot price point makes sense.

FSD, otoh, is absolutely not worth it.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#408

Post by shiftpgdn »

kbos87 wrote: post #402
ckwalsh wrote: post #212

I have a Model 3, and was excited to get the FSD beta access about a month ago. I don't use it super regularly, but it's neat. This morning I tried to turn it on, and the car immediately veered left into the oncoming lane on a straight, 2 lane road. Fortunately, there were no other vehicles nearby. I immediately turned it off in the settings, and have no intention of re-enabling.

Do you have any read of why it may have done that? I’ve driven using FSD for thousands of miles and I’ve never observed anything similar. Not trying to imply that you didn’t experience something like this, but when I see odd behavior from it, it’s always been clear to me why it misinterpreted a situation. Just wondering if there’s more context to the story.

Likewise. The only bizarre behavior I see is "looney tunes" style confusion where the road construction crews have left old lanes in place that steer into a wall or off the road. Humans mostly understand that these are lines lazy construction crews have left (although the debris fields near the barriers maybe tell a different story), but the Tesla vision model likes to try to follow them.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#409

Post by [deleted] »

dtech wrote: post #401
samwillis wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You joke, but the thing is, if an LLM can "hallucinate" and throw a temper tantrum 2001 style (bing in this case), it does raise serious questions as to is the models used for autonomous cars could also "hallucinate" and do something stupid "on purpose"...

They work in completely different ways. There's no reason to assume parallels.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#410

Post by panick21_ »

I wish all the ink spilled on controversy over Tesla would instead be spilled on doing basic safety improvement to the road system that are cheap and proven to save many lives.

Lets be real here, automated driving or not, having actually save roads helps prevent death and harm in many cases.

The hyper focus on high tech software by all the agencies engaged in 'automotive security' is totally wrongly focused. What they should actually do is point out how insanely unsafe and broken the infrastructure is, specially for people outside of cars.

See: "Confessions of a Recovering Engineer: Transportation for a Strong Town"

Post reply on HN