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The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

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Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#401

Post by jewayne »

SpeedilyDamage wrote: post #389
marcusverus wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment would make sense if the primary goal of our border policy was to facilitate cross-border commuting for Mexicans without work visas. If the primary goal is having control of your border (i.e. choosing who gets to come into your country, which is a basic function of competent governments) then this activity would be either prevented, or regulated via special work visas. Either way, the idea that "tight bor…

I'm confused; why isn't the idea of making something more or less legal related to how many people illegally do that thing? They wouldn't be illegal immigrants if we didn't have "tight border controls" by definition, so it feels related and not "divorced from reality"... We lived through this, basically all of American history up until 9/11, where the Mexican border was "loose"(er, the US committed some pretty fucked…

Yep. Only in my lifetime have we attempted to limit movement across that border. But because certain media outlets use the language of war and invasion to describe the peaceful migration of people from country to country, the followers of said outlets have decided that we are, in fact, at war with these people. When in fact they're the same people who mow our lawns and wash our dishes every time we eat out. smh

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#402

Post by wmil »

CydeWeys wrote: post #132
wmil wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no reason they would be excluded. They are getting paid so they'd show up on the books.

I mean, if you're illegally hiring someone, you're not gonna pay them on the book.

There are fewer checks on the immigration status of construction workers than you seem to think.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#403

Post by Gibbon1 »

withinboredom wrote: post #349
baremetal wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Also, undocumented workers still have to pay income taxes. Undocumented workers are sometimes paid in cash.

Getting paid in cash doesn’t excuse you from paying taxes, or filing them.

Failing to withhold payroll taxes and deductions can get you fined hard perhaps tossed in jail.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#404

Post by marcusverus »

jewayne wrote: post #401
SpeedilyDamage wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused; why isn't the idea of making something more or less legal related to how many people illegally do that thing? They wouldn't be illegal immigrants if we didn't have "tight border controls" by definition, so it feels related and not "divorced from reality"... We lived through this, basically all of American history up until 9/11, where the Mexican border was "loose"(er, the US committed some pretty fucked…

Yep. Only in my lifetime have we attempted to limit movement across that border. But because certain media outlets use the language of war and invasion to describe the peaceful migration of people from country to country, the followers of said outlets have decided that we are, in fact, at war with these people. When in fact they're the same people who mow our lawns and wash our dishes every time we eat out. smh

> But because certain media outlets use the language of war and invasion to describe the peaceful migration of people from country to country, the followers of said outlets have decided that we are, in fact, at war with these people.

I guess pretending the issue is just some kind of Fox News conspiracy theory is easier than actually understanding it?

People use the language of "invasion" for a reason. In Texas, non-hispanic whites make up ~30% of births[0], but accounted for only 5% of the population growth[1].

You'll write that off as "muh replacement conspiracy", of course--I can tell that you've been well programmed!

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Texas [1] https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08/12/texas-2020-census/

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#405

Post by marcusverus »

notch656c wrote: post #384
SpeedilyDamage wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem you're having here is that you think "border crossings = bad", but that's not really the issue, is it? If a person doesn't live in the US, and is instead allowed to commute to/from Mexico, you get the upsides of their labor without the "downsides" of supporting them (IMO a disgusting way of thinking about it but here we are). Considering they pay income taxes, sales taxes, social security/medicaid, and do…

It's more profitable to our lower classes to keep the Mexicans / Guatemalans / whatever locked up in their own country to suppress their wages and competition and then allow free trade of goods. That gets us lots of cheap shit without having to pay USA wages. I'm in favor of open borders mostly on humanitarian grounds, and I offer our lower wage laborers as offerings on the pillar of sacrifice for that.

I don't really understand the argument for open borders as a net humanitarian good. For the individuals who come to the US, sure. But how will these countries in Middle America ever develop while their most ambitious, most hard-working, most risk-taking people are siphoned off to live (relatively) cushy lives in the USA?

Just look at what has happened to Puerto Rico. Everyone who can, leaves. What's left is grim. Easy access to the USA is a great deal for the minority who get out, but for most Puerto Ricans, it's hard to imagine that they're better off as a result.

> I'm in favor of open borders mostly on humanitarian grounds, and I offer our lower wage laborers as offerings on the pillar of sacrifice for that.

Half the country agrees with you, but they'd never admit it.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#406

Post by secabeen »

softfalcon wrote: post #30
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t the real headline then that building construction technology hasn’t improved at the same rate as other manufacturing tech? For example, cars today are orders of magnitude more complicated than 50 years ago, but due to more efficient manufacturing technology, the auto industry has far higher productivity per employee than it did 50 years ago.

I believe this is why we're seeing some of the industry starting to experiment with pre-fabbed homes that are modular but can be constructed using the automation we see in car manufacturing. The weak link in creating ever more complex homes, with ever more stringent building codes, at faster rates, is to remove the "humans with nail guns and drills" from the construction process. At some point, us meat sacks are the…

Site prep and site adaptation is a big challenge in construction. Every plot is a little different, and the pre-fab thing you want to install will need some adjustment, tweak or change that reduces the savings over just building it on-site bespoke.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#407

Post by [deleted] »

notch656c wrote: post #372
toast0 wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's go and tear down houses when code is updated and see how quick we can make everyone homeless. It's not reasonable to build with GFCI outlets in the bathrooms in 1956. It's not reasonable to build without them in 2023. Most places have a very limited enforcement appetite for existing construction. If it was safe and current when built, it's fine enough. Exceptions include adding smoke and carbon monoxide detecto…

The building inspector can't see all the people you're making homeless right now by creating ever more expensive building codes. The permitting office doesn't see the good food people can't buy their children because they're spending more on their mortgage. The code enforcement officer doesn't see the person who ended up missing finding cancer early because their gas tank was empty and they couldn't book a doctor's a…

[deleted]

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#408

Post by goodSteveramos »

slt2021 wrote: post #296
goodSteveramos wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. This is how immigration has totally screwed family formation and depressed birth rates for Americans. Young couples cant afford to buy or rent a home in their own city and have to either delay marriage to live with their parents or abandon their families and lifelong friends to move somewhere with lower cost of living. All so employers can go 40 years with giving workers a raise.

birth is depressed in all developed nations, even those that experience net drain of population (aka negative immigration) for example Baltics and some Easter European countries. Stop blaming everything on immigrants, pls. You have your own agency, dont play a victim and get your destiny in your own hands. Immigrant labor is what keeps this country together, all those back breaking jobs that Americans consider themse…

>Without immigrants the housing would be even more expensive

And wages would be commensurately higher. The greatest real income increase in America happened between 1940 and 1970 when there was virtually ZERO immigration.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#409

Post by goodSteveramos »

hn_go_brrrrr wrote: post #165
javajosh wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>undocumented workers [are responsible for the productivity drop] I am confused by this assertion. If they are undocumented, wouldn't they be excluded in the stats? And if they aren't included in the stats, shouldn't we expect an artificial increase in worker productivity? If there is a 4:1 undocumented to documented ratio, then that 1 documented person will get "credit" for the work of 5 people! Even if 4 of those p…

"Undocumented" is the current preferred euphemism for "illegal immigrant".

“Illegal immigrant” is a euphemism for “Illegal alien”. In law these people are called aliens not immigrants. Illegal immigrant is actually an oxymoron

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#410

Post by notch656c »

marcusverus wrote: post #405
notch656c wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more profitable to our lower classes to keep the Mexicans / Guatemalans / whatever locked up in their own country to suppress their wages and competition and then allow free trade of goods. That gets us lots of cheap shit without having to pay USA wages. I'm in favor of open borders mostly on humanitarian grounds, and I offer our lower wage laborers as offerings on the pillar of sacrifice for that.

I don't really understand the argument for open borders as a net humanitarian good. For the individuals who come to the US, sure. But how will these countries in Middle America ever develop while their most ambitious, most hard-working, most risk-taking people are siphoned off to live (relatively) cushy lives in the USA? Just look at what has happened to Puerto Rico. Everyone who can, leaves. What's left is grim . Ea…

I hope those countries would adapt by competing and fixing the things that fuck up their business climate. Also worth noting if their labor flees the price of labor in their country would rise and hopefully make things better for the remainder.
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