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The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

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Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#401

Post by nextos »

screye wrote: post #363
jonathanstrange wrote: post #97

Yes, the situation is dire. I live in Lisbon as a foreigner for more than 12 years now. We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city. Luckily, we have an older contract that cannot be changed as easily as newer ones. I'm not thrilled by the possibility that our landlord might cancel it some day, however, e.g. for relatives to move in. Rents in t…

Airbnb and uber for all their benefits have taken away a lot of urban planning capabilities of local govts. At the same time, they expose the general unwillingness of local govts to accomodate the need of the population or those who bring in economic value (tourists, transplants). If you are becoming a tourist hub, then create an off-town tourist area and add a convenient transit line/people mover to the central part…

I truly agree with most of what you say.

This famous article discusses why housing is becoming a huge problem everywhere and why that's super bad for the economy: https://www.worksinprogress.co/issue/the-housing-theory-of-e.... It's been discussed here a few times, e.g.: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28531025.

The compromise Barcelona made is not enough. Sadly, that beautiful city is IMHO the prototypical case of getting ruined by too much tourism.

In their defense, I think it's safe to state all mid-to-large cities in EU are quite crowded and unaffordable. For example, Copenhagen used to be a place where citizens enjoyed great purchasing power. Despite rent control and sale taxes, a single person in a well-paying job can hardly afford a mortgage for a decent flat right now. The same can be said of Munich, Madrid, London and many, many other places.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#402

Post by stevenwoo »

orthoxerox wrote: post #314
subsubzero wrote: post #171

This sounds like what happened in the SFbay area(south bay/pennisula), I grew up there and it used to be a great place to live, center left politics, lots of families and a diverse set of industries with many middle class opportunities. right around 10-15 years ago things started to change dramatically for the worse, housing and costs everywhere skyrocketed, homeless population exploded, politics veered hard left. Mo…

> Those that owned houses also moved as they were fed up with crime and could get a way better house somewhere else. How do the criminals afford to live in the area?

The freeways make it easy to commute in and out for criminals.

My housemate's car was stolen about 15 years ago(!) and used for a bank robbery somewhere else on the peninsula (also close to a freeway) and abandoned in Oakland.

There's a regular sweep of my neighborhood on the peninsula for unlocked cars at night, they will take anything, and break into cars for visible bags. It's practically every third topic on Nextdoor.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#404

Post by alexandre-bl »

hepinhei wrote: post #279

What this article does not say is that the prime Minister has 6 houses... So he is benefiting from this ( https://www.cmjornal.pt/politica/detalhe/antonio-costa-tem-c... ) We are living more and more in a world where people work but are not able to live with dignity

I don't doubt it. However, the source you've chosen (Correio da Manhã) is famously untrustworthy. It's the butt of many jokes here in Portugal, being regarded as everything a news organization shouldn't be.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#405

Post by tenpies »

googlryas wrote: post #288

Isn't it more accurate to say the Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Lisbon(or Porto, or some other desirable city)? If you have a city with X housing units, but 5X people from within the city + all over the country/world want to live there, and for whatever reason no one wants to/can build 4X more housing units, how do you fairly determine who gets to live there and who doesn't? * Is it fair if you were born…

> If you have a city with X housing units, but 5X people from within the city + all over the country/world want to live there, and for whatever reason no one wants to/can build 4X more housing units, how do you fairly determine who gets to live there and who doesn't?

The phenomena that honestly pisses me off, is that all of these countries touting their immigration policies are lying to immigrants. They're selling them on a quality of life that existed 20 years ago and is no longer possible even to the people who have lived there all their lives.

It's absolutely fraudulent and exploitative behaviour by this countries.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#406

Post by NoLinkToMe »

mupuff1234 wrote: post #26

I wonder how much Airbnb is to blame on the raising rents around the world. Why charge a "local" rate when you can charge 5x that rate for a tourist paying in $$$? Even if you don't, just knowing about Airbnb's extremely high prices will most likely put inflationary pressure on rents.

Not that much, Amsterdam is a notorious city for lots of tourism and high housing prices.

But pre-covid Airbnb was about 10% of the total stays versus Hotels. And tourists in total were about 6% of the overnight population throughout the year on average, again the majority in hotels. And after corona this is a lot less due to new legislation (which caps it to max 30 days per year without a hotel license).

But yes, tourism obviously pushes up prices, but there's a big benefit to the local economy of course as well.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#408

Post by FerociousTimes »

samatman wrote: post #357
FerociousTimes wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally understand your pain in seeing your hometown turning into a hellish zone but I can't pass on calling the irony in your story since these same Cali exiles are one of the principal factors in pricing ordinary locals in Portugal out of their neighborhoods. SOURCE Welcome to Portugal, the new expat haven. Californians, please go home https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-05-12/califo...

I'd love to see so much as a tiny shred of evidence of this, it doesn't pass the smell test. Austin? Ok, sure. How many Californians are expatriating to Lisbon? Is it that many? Ok, let's do Londoners next. A lot more right? Principal factors, you say. Let's see it.

By searching "Californians in Portugal", just one of many on the top search results page:

Welcome to Portugal, the new expat haven. Californians, please go home

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-05-12/califo...

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#409

Post by zizee »

bobthepanda wrote: post #362
zizee wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm struggling to follow your arguments. "Boomers don't like immigrants/workers, therefore life is getting really expensive" doesn't really sound like good reasoning. If the population is shrinking, demographics doesn't explain it by itself. Housing should be getting cheaper if there are less people competing for it. There must be another factor here.

You’re forgetting household size. As with all wealthy countries, household size has fallen in Portugal over the past few decades, so the same amount of people needs more house. This is especially true in the context of empty nest retirees.

So that could be one of the extra factors that we're looking for. People want/expect more, which has caused people to have to pay more. But I'm doubtful that it is going to account for a lot of the cost of living issue in Portugal.

I'd still like the GP to connect the dots for me on his "it's all demographics" argument. It sounds like are argument you hear on Reddit.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#410

Post by makeitdouble »

jseliger wrote: post #115
jonathanstrange wrote: post #97

Yes, the situation is dire. I live in Lisbon as a foreigner for more than 12 years now. We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city. Luckily, we have an older contract that cannot be changed as easily as newer ones. I'm not thrilled by the possibility that our landlord might cancel it some day, however, e.g. for relatives to move in. Rents in t…

We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city Portugal should build more housing, which is a simple, effective solution if the rent is too damn high: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/the-ren... . The nice thing about indoor space is that we can make pretty much as much of it as we'd like.

It gives me pause when an obvious action is actively rejected for decades, but still is asserted as a "simple" solution.

It might be the _right_ solution, but if it failed to be adopted for so long it can't be that simple, isn't it ?

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