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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#401

Post by lapcat »

qaq wrote: post #342
lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

Yey it's always US fault. Russian people obviously have no agency

Completely missing the point, which is that transitioning from totalitarianism/communism to democracy/capitalism is an extremely difficult task for any country, and they could use the help. Just like other countries could use the help recovering from WW2. It's indisputable that many Russian people suffered economically during the transition.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#402

Post by lapcat »

abraxas wrote: post #200
lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

Quoted post unavailable.

> This is subtle Russian propaganda

> lie spread by the sympathizers of the current regime in Moscow

Please respect the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#403

Post by DubiousPusher »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #383
MichaelCollins wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to say. I suspect the horrific bombing of Japanese cities probably had something to do with their willingness to submit. Leaving their Emperor intact as a figurehead probably helped a lot. Perhaps American willingness to help Japan rebuild immediately after such a bitter war also played a role. There were probably innumerable factors that went into it. But there are a lot of differences between that situation an…

Chief among them is, the US did not conquer or occupy the USSR. We had definite say in Japan (and West Germany). We didn't in the USSR.

That's a good point. America had some influence and backed Yeltsin to the hilt but he outflanked Gorbachev in the end and I'm not sure if that could've been changed.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#404

Post by marcinzm »

bhupy wrote: post #288
paganel wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War l There was such a plan, at least in the twisted minds of the people behind the Washington Consensus. They were calling it privatization or price liberalization or some other non-sense like that, thing is the common people got the very, very short stick (like my parents, who lost their jobs, their city apartment and who had to resort to literally subsistence agricultu…

The transition to a market economy went very well for most of the former Soviet Republics except Russia. https://economistwritingeveryday.com/2022/03/16/the-transiti... A lot of Russia's issues stem from the way the government sold off their state owned corporations, which created artificial monopoly/oligopoly owners overnight — often insiders/cronies to begin with. This can be contrasted with traditional market econ…

I was in Poland in the late 90s and there were fairly large economic issues with a lack of job projects for many people. This in turn resulted in fairly high rates of crime as it was one of the more guaranteed ways to make a living if you were young. Many other people left the country to make money which in the long turn led to some of the Brexit issues. I literally didn't meet a single person, including myself, who wasn't burglarized or mugged at least once. Four point locks and steel doors were the norm for apartments and houses (and that didn't always help).

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#405

Post by deepdriver »

calvinmorrison wrote: post #335
paganel wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War l There was such a plan, at least in the twisted minds of the people behind the Washington Consensus. They were calling it privatization or price liberalization or some other non-sense like that, thing is the common people got the very, very short stick (like my parents, who lost their jobs, their city apartment and who had to resort to literally subsistence agricultu…

> Yes, I've started to become more and more bitter as the years have gone by. I feel this. It's not much fun being a end of Millennial. Maybe other generations felt this getting passed over but in general my friends who are older than me by a few years have fared a lot worse than those who are a few years younger than me. Some punk song summed it up Where we'll sell you dreams then make you work for free They handed…

Male life expectancy at birth in Russia fell by six years between 1991 and 1994. A drop that fast was practically unprecedented in developed economies. It’s not fun being a Millennial, as I know firsthand, but nothing comparable to 90s Russia in the aggregate.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41294-021-00169-w

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#406

Post by lapcat »

jorblumesea wrote: post #145
lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

If you study geopolitics and history, you might come to the conclusion that Russia was never going to be a democratic ally of the West regardless of how much economic aid they were given. Russia at the end of the cold war had geopolitical imperatives such as a warm water ports, buffer states and desire for Russian hegemony that would have existed regardless of their economic state. They also have a long, long history…

> If you study geopolitics and history

Please don't make assumptions about what other people have or haven't studied.

> They also have a long, long history of authoritarianism.

You could say the same about the Axis powers in WW2.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#407

Post by jltsiren »

InTheArena wrote: post #360
jltsiren wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reagan didn't end the cold war. He applied economic pressure, which created the conditions that allowed the cold war to end. Gorbachev played the critical part. He let the East European satellite states go rather than sending troops to restore status quo. Within the USSR, his reforms gave the democratic opposition some room to breathe. Once Gorbachev's power started to fail, that allowed the opposition to win, rather…

Not just economic. Reagan believed that the Soviet Union itself should fall, and would fall. Neither was consensus among the politicians and diplomats in America, to say nothing of Europe. he applied economic, military, and diplomatic pressure to make it so. He understood what would happen when the soviets started to relax their control. Something Gorbachev didn't understand or couldn't fight. Why do you think the ke…

> Why do you think the key phrase of the end of the cold war is "Mr. Gobachev, tear down this wall!".

That's a very American perspective. I mostly associate that quote with Civilization V, because it wasn't a big deal at the time, at least in Finland. The speech itself didn't receive that much attention in 1987. When the Berlin Wall fell, the scene that really grabbed people's attention was people breaking the wall with hammers. And if had to choose a single scene to symbolize the end of the cold war, it would be Yeltsin giving a speech on top of a tank.

Applying diplomatic and military pressure to break the Soviet block was not a new thing in the 1980s. The closest it came to succeeding was in 1968. Reforms and the protests didn't lead anywhere at the time, because the USSR had the will and the resources to respond decisively. The situation was different in the late 1980s, thanks to Gorbachev's reforms and Reagan's economic pressure.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#408

Post by [deleted] »

desindol wrote: post #105
Aperocky wrote: post #60

He might be a decent human, but he's woefully bad at his job. He might be able to salvage the Soviet Union into something else, but instead most of it turned into multiple heaps of dumpster fire, which after burning and destroying, was then commandeered by thugs, mafia and oligarchs.

Sometimes you have to work in the constraints of your time as he did. You'll learn that when you get older.

[deleted]

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#409

Post by [deleted] »

desindol wrote: post #105
Aperocky wrote: post #60

He might be a decent human, but he's woefully bad at his job. He might be able to salvage the Soviet Union into something else, but instead most of it turned into multiple heaps of dumpster fire, which after burning and destroying, was then commandeered by thugs, mafia and oligarchs.

Sometimes you have to work in the constraints of your time as he did. You'll learn that when you get older.

[deleted]

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#410

Post by makeitdouble »

desindol wrote: post #105
Aperocky wrote: post #60

He might be a decent human, but he's woefully bad at his job. He might be able to salvage the Soviet Union into something else, but instead most of it turned into multiple heaps of dumpster fire, which after burning and destroying, was then commandeered by thugs, mafia and oligarchs.

Sometimes you have to work in the constraints of your time as he did. You'll learn that when you get older.

> You'll learn that when you get older.

That saying needs to die, or you need to point out exactly how Aperocky will learn and at what approximate age.

Otherwise you're just saying "I only have my personal experience to judge from, with no solid argument, but I'll project that into you with utter confidence and no room for disagreement"

I mean, are you even sure you're older than Aperocky ?

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