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Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#401
Everyone in these comments sounds like they are just trying to beat the system. Mindlessly optimize income above all else.

I'm a mechanical, electrical and systems engineer. A hardware person. I design medical devices mostly. Yes I could make more money being a dev, a data scientist, etc. But I don't want that. I deeply enjoy, love what I do. I love that I can receive a list of requirements on Monday and sit down in CAD and design something, order it by Friday and build a medical device prototype the next week. It's so satisfying, and it's what I've wanted to do since I was 5.

I dont make the kind of salary that folks are saying here for a FAANG data scientist, but close - and I haven't sold my soul. I deeply love what I do, I have chosen to do the part I love and am deeply talented at rather than the part that pays the most. I still get paid handsomely.

Hopefully this inspires another person like me to say it's OK to not maximize your income, it's ok to do what you love and are passionate about. You'll still be ok.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#402
post #122

Food for thought: At the time of this comment almost all the top comments are about pay. No doubt pay is an important consideration, but it worries me when it’s the primary consideration. The best engineers I know like engineering because they have a natural curiosity to learn how things work, not because it’s the easiest route to riches. Any engineering position can lead to a comfortable life, but when everything is…

Do you not think capitalism might drive most humans to think that way? Looking at most of your replies, it's definitely not a simple conclusion that "pay is a primary consideration".

Pay is the primary consideration because capitalism forces us to make it the primary consideration. Most folks would rather it not be, but when our survival depends on it, this is the result you get.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget low level embedded programmers, Kernel developers, and many who live in the world of coding in C/ASM. I recall numerous instances in my undergraduate career where professors and the students passionate in these fields would actively persuade people who didn't get exposes to the stuff from even trying. I remember one professor teaching an elective class on the Linux kernel and how he would try his best to…

We are currently having a hell of a time trying to hire embedded developers We're looking for bare metal developers so basic SPI, I2C, UART knowledge is essential, but even in that realm it's surprising how many embedded devs can't work outside of an RTOS and lack basic hardware knowledge

I think I fit the bill! You can contact me if you want to have a discussion (details in bio)

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key difference, I think, is that software is user-facing, whereas hardware no longer is. The bigwigs and bean counters who make the hire-versus-outsource decisions can tell that lowest-bidder outsourced software sucks and so don't go for it, whereas the outsourced hardware "works" well enough to ship, so they keep outsourcing it.

Interesting. I wonder if this distinction applies within software as well. For example, systems programmers getting paid less than application programmers because the latter makes software "closer" to the user, and backend programmers getting paid less than frontend programmers for the same reason.

Do backend engineers get paid less than frontend? In my experience its been the opposite.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#405
post #286

I will just add to the chorus here: * I graduated as a Computer Engineer. * Worked as EE/EEE entire career (currently almost 14 years). * Half of my class of EEs and CEs went into other careers immediately after graduation because money was better. * 10 years later my best conservative estimate (based on sampling from friends from my year) is that at least another quarter has left because money. * I have mainly worke…

> To those commenters who say that you need to be bright to be an EE, it is very flattering, but I am obviously not very bright :D I did a CE degree as well. Reading all the comments saying that it's super hard at university makes me feel like my university was really shit. The difficulty in EE exams came from having to solve stupidly long and complex equations by hand in an exam with significant time pressure. Prett…

CS degree holder here who had many CE/EE friends who switched from CE/EE to CS (Rutgers University).

One thing that used to blow my mind was the difference between logical circuit design in CS vs CE/EE.

E.g. if the task was "Build a circuit to do X logic using these components AND, OR, XOR etc"

- In CS, it was " Please use the common shapes for each component"

- In CE/EE, it was "Please use the EXACT part code for EACH and EVERY component you use!"

I remember thinking: "Isn't the key lesson to learn the logic flow design vs being able to lookup each and every party number?? Is the EE department trying on purpose to get rid of people?"

You could make the argument that forcing people to do the detail but boring work is a good filter for people who are REALLY serious about EE but I would argue that there have to be better ways to do that.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I wonder if this distinction applies within software as well. For example, systems programmers getting paid less than application programmers because the latter makes software "closer" to the user, and backend programmers getting paid less than frontend programmers for the same reason.

Do backend engineers get paid less than frontend? In my experience its been the opposite.

Yes, backend engineers do get paid more in general. I was just wondering why this runs contrary to OP's explanation that "closeness" to user triumphs job difficulty (when it comes to leverage/salaries).

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#407

I will just add to the chorus here: * I graduated as a Computer Engineer. * Worked as EE/EEE entire career (currently almost 14 years). * Half of my class of EEs and CEs went into other careers immediately after graduation because money was better. * 10 years later my best conservative estimate (based on sampling from friends from my year) is that at least another quarter has left because money. * I have mainly worke…

I don’t understand how the market dynamics work here. As a software engineer, I feel like the market is flooded with workers, and that it is an easy job. I have no idea how we’ve managed to sustain these salaries for so long. At some point, I keep expecting a correction in salaries simply due to supply / demand. I also keep thinking, surely other industries will start paying more and treating folks better, so they ca…

Once you make a software, you can copy it a billion times for very very cheap. A single programmer can impact millions of people.

An electric engineer is working in physical systems and you can't copy physical systems that cheaply. Unless you are in RnD, you can't have the level of impact a junior software engineer can have.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#408
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better to hire generalists who can relentlessly dig through problems while under time pressure, and maintain emotional equanimity. These are the people who will figure out Kubernetes, even if they don't have prior experience. I've been through a hiring process where they tested for that, and I'm stealing that method.

Can you share more details about how that hiring process tested for that? I'd love to hear about it.

It was installing a well-known blogging platform. Something the team had already done before, and sounded simple, only turning into something gnarly. The trouble started with the host running on Debian, with Apache (without mod_php), so now you got a choice of fastcgi or try to force Docker on there … there are no docs for that weird combination.

You only have 30 mins. No one had ever completed it in that time, and finishing it in 30 mins was not the point. The observer can take in all sorts of things, from ability to problem solve, to how one handles the time pressure.

The point isn’t this specific combination of tech (it does not have to be a blog or an installation task), but that someone in devops will run into obscure things as a matter of course.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#409
As a child I was equally interested in hardware and software but ultimately ended up earning an MSEE because I wanted to design CPUs. At the time I was in school (early-mid 2000's), software development generally wasn't viewed as being significantly higher paying than EE. The huge boom in software development didn't seem to start until at least a few years after I graduated. While I was in school the general sentiment toward the tech industry in general was somewhat negative due to the recent bursting of the 90's tech bubble. That said I do recall a meeting during my senior year of undergrad called by the chair of the EE department asking for all graduating seniors' thoughts as to why enrollment in the EE program had dropped off so much since our class started. I think "other engineering disciplines are less difficult" was a much more common answer than “significantly higher pay in software".

Throughout my first several years working as a CPU designer, I watched as the software industry expanded rapidly. The potential pay seemed to be much higher than what was available as a CPU/IC designer, and on multiple occasions I seriously considered a career change into software development. The CPU/IC design industry seemed to be consolidating during this same time period.

Then shortly before COVID hit, I started learning of various large software companies moving into the custom IC space, and the number of opportunities available to CPU/IC designers seemed to be expanding. Over the last year or so my pay has increased significantly due to the apparent worker shortage our industry has been experiencing. It's not as high as what I've read an average FAANG SWE can make, but it's now high enough that I'm not feeling the same urge to make a career change that I was several years ago. I'm able to work mostly remote, have a great team, and get to solve interesting problems. That said, a fair amount of my work does consist of writing code. Having said that, the semiconductor industry seems to be notoriously volatile. Things are good now but could quickly take a turn for the worst. All of the software companies currently experimenting with designing their own custom ICs could decide these side projects are no longer viable.

If I was giving advice to a current college student, I would probably steer them toward software development rather than hardware. The unfortunate reality is that there seems to be many more opportunities and much higher pay potential working in software development than hardware. If I had started college 10+ years later I would have become a software developer. Is the CPU/IC design industry different from other EE fields in terms of potential pay and job opportunities? Maybe it depends on the specific employer.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget low level embedded programmers, Kernel developers, and many who live in the world of coding in C/ASM. I recall numerous instances in my undergraduate career where professors and the students passionate in these fields would actively persuade people who didn't get exposes to the stuff from even trying. I remember one professor teaching an elective class on the Linux kernel and how he would try his best to…

We are currently having a hell of a time trying to hire embedded developers We're looking for bare metal developers so basic SPI, I2C, UART knowledge is essential, but even in that realm it's surprising how many embedded devs can't work outside of an RTOS and lack basic hardware knowledge

There must be plenty of 50+ year old EE developers that can do that, probably very cynical neck-beards by now, or even retired. Most people move into better paying roles so it is hard to buy them, and you duck your resume by taking on low-paying work (even if you paid highly, the next gig won’t).

There was so much low-level microcontroller dev work in the past, but perhaps that has mostly moved overseas now?

I used to do that work and I am not working at present, but I’ve moved up the stack a long way since then, so my pay and working condition expectations are probably ridiculous. And I don’t want to move from New Zealand!

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