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Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

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Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#401

Post by sokoloff »

hvidgaard wrote: post #280
dan-robertson wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most Americans are significantly worse off since the 1970s I think this is obviously false and hurts the credibility of the rest of this comment. There are many pitfalls with measuring long-term inflation. How much did an internet connection cost in the 1970s? What about a computer? What about a smartphone? These modern technologies make peoples lives much better and were somewhere between impossible and impossibly…

What good is new tech if you cannot afford to buy a house or a new'ish car for the minimum wage, even if you live frugal and save?

Is it reasonable to expect that a minimum wage earner should be able to afford to buy a house and a newish car? Were minimum wage earners doing that in 1970?

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#402

Post by nly »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #54
tjpnz wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience HR are never receptive to those types of arguments. If you want a raise the best thing you can do is find a new job.

> If you want a raise the best thing you can do is find a new job. Note that this doesn't always even involve taking it. Go get a job offer that pays better and bring it to your boss. If they want to match it, great. If they don't, bye.

I did this this year. My old employer admitted they had probably fallen behind the market and that "those numbers were definitely reachable here, after a few years, and further significant impactful contributions to projects like X, Y, Z". By my reckoning they were a good 3-4 years away.

They expressed that they wanted me to stay but at the end of the day it was crocodile tears.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#403

Post by onion2k »

steerablesafe wrote: post #265
onion2k wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if your employer is so unhappy with you that, even when you’ve shown your skill, he’s unwilling to pay you a competitive amount then it’s clear you don’t really have a future at your current job This is the crux of the problem - people assume that anyone going to their boss asking for a raise is underpaid. That isn't always true. When someone goes and finds a new role on more money it's almost always at a higher leve…

If they got promoted at their new company then you can counter offer with a promotion too?

If I think some has reached the next level then I'll promote them anyway. No one should need to prove that they deserve a promotion by finding another company willing to offer them that role.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#404

Post by montblanc »

mercy_dude wrote: post #371
dan-robertson wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most Americans are significantly worse off since the 1970s I think this is obviously false and hurts the credibility of the rest of this comment. There are many pitfalls with measuring long-term inflation. How much did an internet connection cost in the 1970s? What about a computer? What about a smartphone? These modern technologies make peoples lives much better and were somewhere between impossible and impossibly…

> How much did an internet connection cost in the 1970s? What about a computer? What about a smartphone? This is the elitist fallacy that somehow having access cheap smartphones and plastics mostly manufactured in China at the back of our working class jobs make your life better while all else indicates life expectancy and quality of life across the board is declining for majority of Americans. Many Americans includi…

> How does having cheap access to internet makes the quality of your life better

Whoa that's a bit of a reach no? How about the ability to drive around with GPS? Or stay easily in touch with family living far away? Taking photos of your baby and having it stored on the cloud for free? The ability to learn almost anything for free?

I'm not saying it's all great, it isn't, but we can't deny the benefits.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#405

Post by nindalf »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #389
WalterBright wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a circa 1970 car, and a modern car. The 1970 car is very cheaply built, and is mechanically simple. The quality, complexity, and sheer number of parts of a modern car has increased enormously. Much of that is due to regulation, most every aspect of a car is heavily regulated today. None of this comes for free.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the reasons the modern car has more parts and is not mechanically simple is not the boogeyman of regulations (although I suppose it could have caused some things like say seat belt alerts and airbags) but rather feature creep in the automotive industry, and computerization of everything.

The people who dislike something will see it everywhere and blame it for everything. Regulation especially is very versatile as a scapegoat.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#406

Post by Valakas_ »

bjarneh wrote: post #184

Not sure how inflation is calculated globally; but where I live (Norway) we leave housing costs out of inflation. That always seemed very strange to me. Our main cost of living, (which has gone through the roof the last 25 years) is somehow left out of the calculation. My rent, or cost of buying a house - is much more important than the cost of a Snickers bar.

Exactly. I mean food that we buy for 10€, 15€ a pop counts for inflation. And then the most expensive thing we ever purchase in our lives, say 400 000€ right now, and the effect on inflation on that doesn't count? Doesn't make sense to me.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#407

Post by sokoloff »

ricardobayes wrote: post #379
sigmaprimus wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah and most of those parents have been refinancing their homes to support their spoiled children. That is going to end real soon and many of those kids are going to witness their parents lose their homes and become impoverished due to their lazy yet extravagant lifestyles.

It's not about spoiled children, I see janitors walking around with 800 euro phones here. It's just a psychological way for low earning people to 'keep up with the Kardashians'. AS they can't buy cars or houses they buy gadgets.

It’s amusing to me to contemplate that I work in tech and buy 1-2 year old iPhones for $300-500. I’m glad so many people have to have the very latest and so recycle great tech for 50+% discounts.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#408

Post by roenxi »

pabs3 wrote: post #141
roenxi wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inflation doesn't - fundamentally - change the power balance between employers and employees. Market forces will cause the situation to find a fair market price. If job hopping can't get you better wages, then you probably don't have enough market power to resist if an employer flat-out cuts your pay. Though to try and prevent misunderstandings - I do think inflation is bad for people who are paid wages. Market force…

Late last century inflation and then wages keeping up with that inflation enabled a generation of folks to pay off their first mortgages quite quickly.

That is saying a lot less than you might think. Again, consider that the banks employ actuaries - they understand inflation a lot better than the people borrowing the money. They didn't let themselves be the losers here.

Inflation doesn't change the actual power balance between different actors, it does make the situation more complex and harder to keep up with. It doesn't create real wealth and it is not responsible for a wealth transfer to wage earners. The idea just lacks a mechanism - for the wealth to come from employers or businesses they have to be ignorant, altruistic and disinterested in money. That seems unlikely. Ditto most other actors. Changing value of money favours people who can continuously adjust to it which isn't a typical wage earner.

If a generation gets something for free, they got it from somewhere else. Who lost out here? Why did it need to be inflation to make that happen? If they didn't get it for free, it is unclear why inflation would be necessary in the story instead of incidental.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#409

Post by oblio »

nickpp wrote: post #390
oblio wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the tax burden is 10% more but you pay 2-3-4-10x less, your point is moot. And countries with comparable stats like waiting times pay less overall. Don't die on this hill, it's not worth it.

Living in Eastern Europe, I am paying both the tax burden AND private medical insurance and care since I do not want to end up in state hospitals. I would much rather live in the USA and pay private insurance enjoying the standard of care there. It's the hill I live on, so I will probably die here.

Well, do what all reasonable Eastern Europeans do and go to an OECD country minus Mexico or Hungary or so :-))

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#410

Post by oblio »

mrep wrote: post #385
oblio wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to believe anything, you can check for yourself. The numbers are easily available online. Healthcare is 2-3-4 times >. Education is generally >. Housing is expensive outside the US, too, a bit less so. I feel the problem is not regulation in the US, it's that you half ass it. Americans are all about "rugged individualism" and "small government" when advanced societies are advanced because large groups…

The US has the 3rd lowest housing price to income ratio [0]. You just need to avoid the west coast and northeast and you can find plenty of affordable housing [1]. [0]: https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/rankings_by_count... [1]: https://www.supermoney.com/inflation-adjusted-home-prices/

Interesting.
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