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California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#401

Post by csa »

mturmon wrote: post #309
csa wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My third grader does simple equations like this in math. Most third graders cannot consistently do the following: 10 - ? = 3 10 - ? (- 10) = 3 (- 10) - ? = - 7 (-) ? = (-) 7 ? = 7 This is absolute voodoo magic to most third graders. They may be able to memorize specific patterns, but they won’t be able to manipulate equations consistently and accurately. Fwiw, at 3rd grade, some of the smarter kids might be able to…

You can't quite do it the way you have shown, but take a look at: https://dragonbox.com/products/algebra-5 My kid tore through almost the whole set of problems in the app at about the recommended age (5yo).

Sure. The way I presented it was not an accident (abstract with little scaffolding).

The question with the software that I have is how much is actually understood. Specially, how much of what was done can be applied in a different context. Ideally consistently, accurately, and without any scaffolding. I’m guessing the answer might be “a lot” for a typical HNer’s child (or maybe not), but it rounds to zero for the average or lower 5yo.

I would also be curious about how much success can be had with just rapid trial and error rather than learning and applying. 5 year olds can be great at the trial and error part while not actually developing and retaining much understanding. I could be very off the mark with this speculation, but a lot of my experience in this area makes me think I’m not.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#402

Post by Buttons840 »

> it pushes Algebra 1 back to 9th grade, de-emphasizes calculus

> San Francisco Unified School District touted the effort as a success, asserting that algebra failure rates fell and the number of students taking advanced math rose as a result of the change

> "There’s a huge problem with math instruction right now. The way things are set up, it’s not giving everybody a chance to learn math at the highest levels"

This really feels like they lowered the bar and are now excited that more people are able to jump over it.

Also, that last quote is infuriating. Nobody will have a chance to learn math at the highest level now, at least not in high school.

Rather than lift those who struggle, let's drag down those doing well, or so it seems.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#403

Post by hintymad »

darth_avocado wrote: post #14

Here's a revolutionary idea that pretty much all of the world adopts, if students are having trouble with a topic, get them to do more of it, instead of running away from it. I always find it hilarious that the pre college education in US is so messed up. Instead of doing Algebra 1, Algebra 2, calculus, geometry as one subject that you do in a year and then completely forgetting about it till the next time you have t…

Not being sarcastic, I think you misunderstood the political environment of the US right now. The media and the bureaucrats are not seeking truths but narratives. And doing more is immediately labeled racism because well, you don't appreciate the hardship and systemic racism that the oppressed have to endure.

As for why shooting basketball 10,000 times day is considered heroic hardworking while doing 10 math exercises a day is considered being privileged and cramming and prepping and Asian? Well, that beats me too.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#404

Post by abeppu »

So much dialogue is around how to pace and sequence the traditional math curriculum (geometry, trig, precalc, calc). Are those still the most important things to teach? And do they need to be taught and tested through working through the same calculations framed in the same narrow scenarios? When's the last time you solved a quadratic equation or did integration by parts in the real world? The concepts may be important, but is chugging through trigonometric identities really helping kids?

I use the concept of a derivative often, and I'm glad it enriches my understanding of the world even if I calculate derivatives almost never. But there are so many other useful math concepts which might be better to communicate than just doing exercises around techniques (e.g. can you apply the quotient rule correctly).

Concepts I wish we emphasized instead:

- stats: uncertainty, confidence intervals. (In)dependence of variables. Correlation.

- discrete math: enough to communicate the concept of structure being preserved. Enough combinatorics to understand why some families of structures might be huge. Basic concepts around graphs.

These ideas don't necessarily need to be sequenced. You can deal with plenty of integrals while learning stats, but you don't have to.

What if our concept of woke math involved introducing posets and relations and cases where comparison isn't possible? What if we stopped talking about high school math as a single ladder and consider it more as a landscape to explore? By desequentualizing topics, maybe upper class hs students can actually catch up by taking more than one math class at a time?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#405

Post by [deleted] »

bko wrote: post #71
darth_avocado wrote: post #14

Here's a revolutionary idea that pretty much all of the world adopts, if students are having trouble with a topic, get them to do more of it, instead of running away from it. I always find it hilarious that the pre college education in US is so messed up. Instead of doing Algebra 1, Algebra 2, calculus, geometry as one subject that you do in a year and then completely forgetting about it till the next time you have t…

This policy has nothing to do with the topic of algebra. This is code for advanced math, because algebra is typically considered advanced for < 9th grade children. Since the organizations feel ashamed that they're failing certain demographics as evidenced by being under-represented in the advanced classes, they're just scrapping the advanced classes for everyone. Truly disgraceful

[deleted]

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#406

Post by newbie789 »

This largely upon skimming seems pretty boring ideas like “it’s possible to teach math better in high school.”

It’s a trip that it’s couched in language that apparently is pissing a lot of people off (and bringing up some resentment about race in a direction that I find somewhat surprising.)

A lot of folks seem to be posting that if kids have to wait a little longer, it’ll somehow negatively impact all of the super smart 13 year olds’ ability to learn at maximum speed and adversely affect the talented and bright students that just want to learn math due to the fact that the school is somehow withholding knowledge from these poor kids!

I was a VERY gifted young student that was on to trig in 8th grade, pretty much entirely self taught with what I could find online (in the mid 2000s). It turns out that the fact that something wasn’t taught at school didn’t “hold me down” or “delay my education.”

The anger around this seems… weird. The insistence that this is actually harming 8th graders sounds like somebody who hasn’t actually asked an 8th grader if they give a shit, while pearl clutching about the status quo not being exactly maintained.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#407

Post by darth_avocado »

mistrial9 wrote: post #307
darth_avocado wrote: post #14

Here's a revolutionary idea that pretty much all of the world adopts, if students are having trouble with a topic, get them to do more of it, instead of running away from it. I always find it hilarious that the pre college education in US is so messed up. Instead of doing Algebra 1, Algebra 2, calculus, geometry as one subject that you do in a year and then completely forgetting about it till the next time you have t…

what about this info ? Literacy Rate of India 2021 - To know development in a society, Literacy is another proper indicator of economic development. For purpose of census, a person in age limit of seven and above, who can both write and read with understanding in any of the language is considered as a literate in India. ... Although India has raised its current literacy rate of 74.04% (2021) from 12% at the time of I…

You’re talking about people who don’t go to school. That’s not relevant at all to the discussion here.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#408

Post by [deleted] »

darth_avocado wrote: post #14

Here's a revolutionary idea that pretty much all of the world adopts, if students are having trouble with a topic, get them to do more of it, instead of running away from it. I always find it hilarious that the pre college education in US is so messed up. Instead of doing Algebra 1, Algebra 2, calculus, geometry as one subject that you do in a year and then completely forgetting about it till the next time you have t…

[deleted]

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#409

Post by candybar »

tppiotrowski wrote: post #31
holonomically wrote: post #7

I was doing algebra and Russian math word problems in 4th grade (maybe earlier, it's been a while). What exactly is the logic of pushing back mathematical training to later grades? [1] 1: https://www.edhelper.com/geography/Russia_Math1.htm

Second grade in Poland I remember problems like this when learning addition and subtraction: 3 + ? = 10 10 - ? = 3

This is also taught in second grade in the US.

Edit:

https://www.khanacademy.org/math/cc-2nd-grade-math/cc-2nd-ad...

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#410

Post by threatofrain »

cactus2093 wrote: post #397
threatofrain wrote: post #121

The program is called Equitable Math and it frames current mathematics pedagogy as a mechanism by which White Supremacy is sustained.¹ Note that in a very long multi-part document on White Supremacy, there is absolutely zero mention of Asians, despite that they are somewhere between 15.5% to 17% of the state population.² Program goals includes the de-emphasis of Algebra for middle school and Calculus for high school.…

Is moving away from Calculus in high school such a bad idea? I took AP Calculus in high school and studied physics in undergrad so I've done a lot of calculus, but it honestly seems like a pretty niche subject when I think about it. It's hard to think of any times that it's applicable in my life any more. Some of the concepts are very beautiful, but a lot of things like the rote solving of integrals to get to a close…

Mathematical Statistics typically requires Calculus, both as an institutional and pedagogical requirement.

It is understandable that some students do not wish to pursue further mathematical studies, but should that translate into the requirement that all students must be at the same level? Or that Algebra shall not be offered in middle school? Note that schools are already free to offer Statistics or Computer Science, neither of which are respected by universities.

It is very difficult to create a program with sufficient reliability that universities are willing to accept some form of credits earned or requirements met.

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