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Without parental leave I might be dead

nytimes.com

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Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#401

Post by meheleventyone »

echelon wrote: post #383
meheleventyone wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds totally bonkers if you’re not used to it but this is actually the norm in other countries. Both of us had comparatively long parental leave for both kids. Both kids went into really nice state kindergarten before they were 18 months. Before that if we were poorer we’d have our childcare subsidised. Both kids get things like a sports club grant each year, free dental care and free healthcare. There are state…

I'm trying to find reasonable thresholds and weigh the societal pros and cons. > The amazing thing to me is you think the OP was asking for something unbelievable. The five years that OP alluded to is a really long time to not be working. That's 5/40 years for any given career (for a single child), meaning one eighth of a childfree person's productivity has to cover for it. At least at this extreme scale. > Both of u…

Three months each with six months shared.

My friends and coworkers who’ve lived in the US describe pre-school childcare as dystopian. Even when expensive.

If you think of it as 5/(40 * 2) or if you had two kids relatively close together 7/(40 * 3) the math is significantly better. It’s also very telling that caring for kids is not seen as being productive.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#402

Post by kazen44 »

antoinealb wrote: post #205
tomp wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're free to move to Europe, earn 3x less, and get 1-2 years parental leave (actually not just for mothers in some countries!)

I think lumping together all European countries like that is not really helpful: not many european countries have a median income one third of the american one, and some are even higher than the US one. wrt duration of maternity leave, western europe is pretty much at 3-6 months, while some of the eastern countries go longer. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave )

Also, immigrating to european countries for americans is not so easy, especially if you are not in a high paying in demand field.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#403

Post by jseban »

DavidVoid wrote: post #337
danShumway wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much this would change if parental leave was also granted to fathers at similar or equal rates. The article mentions postpartum issues -- this is stuff that isn't really mitigated by having one parent alone care for a kid. If you're struggling with depression by yourself in the house with a kid... it's nice to have more people around to help. Even if you're not struggling with depression, having people a…

Some European countries require the parental leave to be shared to some degree. Here in Sweden each parent gets 90 days of parental leave each, and the remaining 300 days can be split in whatever way the parents choose. You also don't have to take all the parental leave at once, you can spread it out over a few years (and 96 of the days can even be saved until the child is between 4 and 12 years old if you want).

Yeah which doesn't make any sense, how can you motivate to have two adults full time only to care for your own children. Sure I agree with the parent that "it's nice" but come on, it's extremely privileged. And it's commonly abused in Sweden to take several month long vacations abroad with the whole family, which literally nobody else can do, unless you have children. It's a privilege not available to single people at all.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#404

Post by echelon »

Terr_ wrote: post #328
echelon wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Subsidize me until they are in public school and I’ll high five you. I know this is an exaggeration, but it drew my interest. This expects that the rest of us have to work to subsidize you having children for five to six years . I'm wholly on board with helping parents raise children. Children are our future. But at some threshold of subsidization this equation tips and actively offloads the entire burden onto thos…

> But at some threshold of subsidization this equation tips and actively offloads the entire burden onto those without children. True, but on a long enough timeframe one could also view it as a repayment from the people who (with or without children) were once children-being-subsidized themselves.

That's a great point, actually. Inverse social security.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#405

Post by railsgirls112 »

yodsanklai wrote: post #299
mataug wrote: post #276

This is one of the reasons why I don't want to have kids in the US. - Paid parental leave is inadequate - Child care is obscenely expensive - Putting my child through a good school district might make me house-poor. - I'm not sure I can save my child from crippling Student debt without killing my retirement savings. - The looming climate disaster that my child might have to go through. Given all these factors, it doe…

> The looming climate disaster that my child might have to go through. Climate disaster isn't an US thing. And it may strike Europe harder than the US.

Climate disaster is a fundamentally global issue? I fail to see how this invalidates anything

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#406

Post by nanidin »

TheCapn wrote: post #70

My first child is due January. I sat down with my boss about a month or so ago and told him I'm intending to take parental leave. "No problem" he said, I told him my intention was to take the full 8 weeks I'm entitled to. He didn't say anything right away to that... eventually it was more of a "...that's not typical for the guys around here" We did a bit of back and forth. (I think he went to HR to find out he can't…

My former company enacted a paternal leave policy around the time MSFT required suppliers/partners to offer them in order to continue doing business with MSFT.

Shortly after I became the manager of my team, one of my reports informed me that he wanted to use 3-4 weeks of paternal leave (out of a max of 6) a few months after the birth of his child (company policy allowed it within 12 months.) He said he'd keep his laptop nearby in case of emergencies. "You're crazy!" I told him, "take the full 6 weeks! And leave the laptop off!"

As a manager, if it's the company policy, then it's the employee's right to take the time off. There should be no amount of brow-beating (assuming sufficient advance notice, of course.) I checked in with HR for procedural details, and overall it was easy/painless from top to bottom.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#407

Post by lucaspm98 »

beaconstudios wrote: post #300
ThinkBeat wrote: post #294

From the US live in Norway now. In Norway there are a lot of political parties that can matter. All depends on the election. Some grow, some dont, new ones are added, old ones go away. That is a dynamic that is entirely missing in the US. We have parties in the European left and we have parties on the European right, parties in the middle, green party etc etc. I try to get people to understand that we do not have a s…

It's really strange to think that the American left (AOC, Bernie) are fighting for such radical concepts as social healthcare, free education and paid maternity leave. I'm from the UK, the most capitalist European country and we had all three until we regressed on university fees thanks to our wonderful Conservative party.

There's a reason for that. The majority of countries with these socialized services have suffered from the corruption, bureaucracy, and taxation innate with government control. This is with the notable exception of a few countries with vast natural resources providing an economic baseline, and likely more importantly a relatively small and homogenous population with similar needs and opinions.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#408

Post by KaiserPro »

bko wrote: post #182
KaiserPro wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a model. its not a study, its a metric collected from the UK for the last 20 years. The arguments for "not hiring women because they'll just go and get pregnant" have largely been settled in the UK. shared parental leave is a thing, its just what happens. Employers that don't facilitate it are punished, either by employment tribunal, or people leaving to join somewhere that does.

> This isn't a model. its not a study, its a metric collected from the UK for the last 20 years. And absolutely nothing else changed in the UK in the last 20 years that may affect this number? Logic would tell you the disincentive exists. Looking at aggregate country data over 20 years doesn't tell you anything about a single policy. > Employers that don't facilitate it are punished, either by employment tribunal, or…

> And absolutely nothing else changed in the UK in the last 20 years that may affect this number? Logic would tell you the disincentive exists. Looking at aggregate country data over 20 years doesn't tell you anything about a single policy.

The main argument against paid parental leave is that is will cause wage gap to grow. I don't see the data backing that up.

Yes, there have been other landmark cases in the courts about equal pay.

> That's a lot of employers to keep track of. In terms of people leaving for jobs that do offer paid parental leave only works for those wishing to take parental leave.

You see this is where I think we differ. Here in the UK parental leave is part of a few measures that are aimed at flexibility. There is the right to flexible working (ie working non standard hours) Working from home (which is implied rather than a legal obligation) All of these in 2019 were part of a movement to make work a bit less shit. I had a number of employees who were childless that we enabled hybrid working. So that they could avoid coming in hungover, or work non standard times from abroad. Or just not come in with a cold and get everyone ill.

When a company advertises its "benefits" (this was pre covid) they used to use parental leave as a signal that they had a more relaxed working atmosphere.

For me, I've found that happy employees are loyal, more productive and willing to forgive mistakes. I have tried to make sure that those I manage feel like they have some level of work security, which rewards me as a manager with better productivity and lower staff turnover.

I used to try and be a bit like malcom tucker (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjKHPv7b3fQ) it doesnt work as well as just being reasonably caring.

> she would be willing to take a higher salary in lieu of a company that provides generous parental leave.

again this is not a british thing to do. A right is a right, opting out of a right to get more money undermines everyone. I mean sure you can come back two weeks after giving birth, (I know someone who came back after a month) but you're not going to get more money for it.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#409

Post by mountain_peak »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #397

"If you live in Canada or, say, France, you are probably amused by this little thought experiment. And possibly drinking a beer from a small and dainty glass." Not really. Yes we have one year parental leave here in Canada, but the $$ value of that is not very high all things considered. It's not enough to live on on its own. Maximum in Ontario right now is $595 CAD a week for the highest income earners and lower tha…

Completely my experience as well (x3 kids)...can you enlighten me on what the author meant by, "drinking beer from a small and dainty glass"? If there's a social reference or analogy, I'm missing it.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#410

Post by danShumway »

jseban wrote: post #403
DavidVoid wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some European countries require the parental leave to be shared to some degree. Here in Sweden each parent gets 90 days of parental leave each, and the remaining 300 days can be split in whatever way the parents choose. You also don't have to take all the parental leave at once, you can spread it out over a few years (and 96 of the days can even be saved until the child is between 4 and 12 years old if you want).

Yeah which doesn't make any sense, how can you motivate to have two adults full time only to care for your own children. Sure I agree with the parent that "it's nice" but come on, it's extremely privileged. And it's commonly abused in Sweden to take several month long vacations abroad with the whole family, which literally nobody else can do, unless you have children. It's a privilege not available to single people a…

> It's a privilege not available to single people at all.

And getting more than 3 hours of sleep a lot is a privilege that's not available to recent parents.

I don't know the exact details of what policies are correct for paid time off, but the fact is still true that we have a strong societal incentive to handle situations like this in a way that's beneficial both to the parents and (especially) beneficial to kids -- at least if we believe that parental presence helps early development, which seems reasonably well supported.

I say this as a single person with no plans to ever marry or have children, but the reality is that being single or having kids each carries its own set of advantages and disadvantages, and I'm not sure that fairness between parents and childless individuals is necessarily the best lens to look at policy through.

There's a lot of middle ground here between status quo and what GP describes, but even in that case raising a child is still an 18+ year commitment; I don't think that a single family vacation significantly changes that.

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