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Facebook employees are now more willing to leave, tech recruiters say

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Re: Facebook employees are now more willing to leave, tech recruiters say

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have interviewed hundreds of candidates and worked for many projects over past 20 years. > Are these candidates truly incapable of doing the job, or are the understanding of what the job entails misunderstood by everyone involved? Yes. There is a lot of candidates who utterly incapable of doing their job. Let me share a story. I remember one day I wanted to pass driver's licence exam here in Warsaw, Poland. Poland…

> But I honestly believe most of these people simply can't program. What is even more interesting is that these people come mainly for senior development jobs (I don't interview junior developers) But how do you explain people who don’t know how to program being able to advance to senior roles? Maybe they are able to program but completely depend on IDEs or having reference code to look at in their daily work. Maybe…

I spent a lot of time trying to figure it out and I have some theories.

First, we underestimate how difficult it is for managers to learn which employees are good ones and provide value. There is a lot of reasons for this.

Maybe they aren't very good engineers themselves in the first place? Maybe they have some skewed measure of what value is (for example they just count closed tickets or lines of code written or some other measure that has little to do with real value?)

Second, some people create a lot of shit that will come around as technical debt later. But understanding technical debt is incredibly complex task for the manager. I have never seen a manager that has good understanding of where their technical debt comes from, forget about pinpointing exact people that are causing it, except for very special situations (like me pointing out a PR and explaining line by line why this is poor development).

They can and do close tickets a lot. They do that because they feel insecure and need justification for them being there. But they will do quantity over quality and will tend to pick simple problems that will not expose their lack of capability.

You can solve a lot of problems by simple trial and error. Which tends to produce poor code.

Yes, they tend to close a lot of tickets. But they also tend to create more problems than they solve.

Most corporate projects I worked for do not require any complex coding. You can get by ctrl-c/ctrl-v-ing existing code. A difference between a good and bad employee will not be in whether they can produce a code that works now. The difference might be whether they can:

- produce code that will work correctly regardless of the changing circumstances,

- produce code that is as simple as possible but not simpler than necessary,

- notice problems with the codebase and take initiative to fix this on the spot (sometimes without anybody else even being aware of),

- notice opportunities for improvement that somebody else will be working on,

- drive communication to ensure the feature that is being built is really what the client needs (rather than what the client wishes), then to confirm satisfaction,

etc.

Additionally, these people tend to create an image of being overworked which looks plausible from manager's point of view. It does not help that other developers might be aware of this but will not say a word to the manager (as it might be considered "snitching" or they might feel they shouldn't do that which somebody else might do for them).

These things are not easy to understand when you are a manager and you are also surrounded by your team that guards every word they send your way.

Re: Facebook employees are now more willing to leave, tech recruiters say

#403
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanted to say that this echoes my experience perfectly. After interviewing several hundreds of people, two surprising things stood out: - a large percentage of technical applicants cannot program even in languages where they claim multiple years of work experience - this holds true for non-technical applicants too I think this is a combination of poor applicants being overrepresented in the applicant pool (good one…

I am interviewing candidates a lot (I would say on average 1-2 per week for the past 20 years). At least in case of software development jobs I think there is couple additional factors: - people who are absolutely unable to do it but have strong desire to get well paying job regardless. I have actually seen this work. Ie. a person that can't program at all be called a principal developer and for years successfully hi…

Your observations match mine, too. Especially the first bullet point. There are a lot of developer candidates who simply can't develop--even the most basic FizzBuzz level program. But, boy can they talk... and talk... and talk... and self-promote... and charm... and flash a big, beautiful consultant smile... and make the non-technical higher-ups feel great about hiring them. I think a lot of us work at companies where the technical screen is a deal-breaker, but there are many, MANY tech companies out there where, if a candidate impresses the VP with their smooth talking Ivy-league sounding charm, the VP will override the tech-nerd's evaluations and hire them. And then, the impostor can use their charm and political savvy to mask their lack of work output... sometimes for years.

Re: Facebook employees are now more willing to leave, tech recruiters say

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I honestly believe most of these people simply can't program. What is even more interesting is that these people come mainly for senior development jobs (I don't interview junior developers) But how do you explain people who don’t know how to program being able to advance to senior roles? Maybe they are able to program but completely depend on IDEs or having reference code to look at in their daily work. Maybe…

I spent a lot of time trying to figure it out and I have some theories. First, we underestimate how difficult it is for managers to learn which employees are good ones and provide value. There is a lot of reasons for this. Maybe they aren't very good engineers themselves in the first place? Maybe they have some skewed measure of what value is (for example they just count closed tickets or lines of code written or som…

Thank you for sharing your detailed experience and insight into the problem. It sounds like this field has a long way to go to produce better engineers. Perhaps the way software engineering education and training needs to be completely rethought. It’s ironic that despite the name, so much of the creation of software lacks the craftsmanship attributes that other engineering disciplines possess.

Re: Facebook employees are now more willing to leave, tech recruiters say

#405
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

he's talking about how they may have misrepresented the business of the company to investors. the SEC has ongoing stuff about this.

This is where Matt Levine would opine "everything is securities fraud".

maybe. if nothing matters then it doesn't matter if zuck gets charged with something then.

Re: Facebook employees are now more willing to leave, tech recruiters say

#406
post #369
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those extra axes seem easy to fake. Just "review" all code reviews you see - takes 5 sec per CR and your metrics skyrocket. Mission of the team? Write some bs docs with vision and ideas: nobody needs them, but you get to mark the checkbox. Team culture? Say you've organized a book reading club, even do a couple meetings - just bring a book there and mark the checkbox. Books don't actually need to be read. Want to sco…

Goodhart's law in effect. I once had a job where a portion of our bonus was related to an automated code quality score. Needless to say, we reverse engineered the algorithm and scripted the (pointless, probably slightly harmful) changes to the source to maximise the score.

What did and didn't the score algorithm like?

(Did you reverse eng it during work time :-))

Re: Facebook employees are now more willing to leave, tech recruiters say

#407
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those extra axes seem easy to fake. Just "review" all code reviews you see - takes 5 sec per CR and your metrics skyrocket. Mission of the team? Write some bs docs with vision and ideas: nobody needs them, but you get to mark the checkbox. Team culture? Say you've organized a book reading club, even do a couple meetings - just bring a book there and mark the checkbox. Books don't actually need to be read. Want to sco…

That wouldn't fly at FB. Doing busywork without producing impact doesn't count for anything. And CR comments are reviewed by managers - a bunch of LGTMs doesn't add up to much. It might unblock the team, but the goal is to uplevel the team, so meaty comments that impart knowledge are searched out.

I would have thought that people would start doing smaller and smaller change requests, collaboratively enabling each other to do more and smaller & quicker code reviews

True teamwork

Re: Facebook employees are now more willing to leave, tech recruiters say

#408
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those extra axes seem easy to fake. Just "review" all code reviews you see - takes 5 sec per CR and your metrics skyrocket. Mission of the team? Write some bs docs with vision and ideas: nobody needs them, but you get to mark the checkbox. Team culture? Say you've organized a book reading club, even do a couple meetings - just bring a book there and mark the checkbox. Books don't actually need to be read. Want to sco…

That wouldn't fly at FB. Doing busywork without producing impact doesn't count for anything. And CR comments are reviewed by managers - a bunch of LGTMs doesn't add up to much. It might unblock the team, but the goal is to uplevel the team, so meaty comments that impart knowledge are searched out.

What's the incentive for those managers to take you down like that? Even then, you can write prose in comments - semi-related thoughts that are very difficult to distinguish from actually valuable comments.

Re: Facebook employees are now more willing to leave, tech recruiters say

#409
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at a FAANG (not anymore), and my spouse and many of my friends still do. There are two ways to do FAANG (very generally). You can care about promotion, or you can not. If you do care, then it's competitive and stressful because perf reviews (and often politics) will determine your fate. If you just want to cruise and have a cushy job, you can do that too, but just accept that you either won't get promoted (o…

The correct way to do it, if you can, is, quite obviously, #2. The comp differential that comes from "career" isn't life changing, but the stress that comes with that comp differential is very real and damaging to your relationships IRL, your family, and yourself. And even if you coast, you'll still be paid better on income/effort basis as well as in absolute, compared to the vast majority of non-FANG companies. As r…

How might the age solve the problem? (Retirement maybe?)

Re: Facebook employees are now more willing to leave, tech recruiters say

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the inside perspective > Couple this with a culture that has masterminded a set of carrots and sticks that gets people to push themselves very hard all of the time, I’m completely burnt out. Can you say more about the work/life balance? I've heard Facebook's work life balance described as everything from a cushy "engineer retirement home" to a grueling crushing workload that few can handle. Obviously FB is…

I have never heard of Facebook described as anything like "engineer retirement home". Google, yes, but not FB. When I was there, poor work life balance was everywhere - from individual contributors to managers, from engineers to product managers to all other cross-functional partners, from juniors to senior staff levels.

How many hours per week did the poor balance people tend to work?
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