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When “Foundation” Gets the Blockbuster Treatment, Asimov’s Vision Gets Lost

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Re: When “Foundation” Gets the Blockbuster Treatment, Asimov’s Vision Gets Lost

#401
There's a fundamental problem with the Foundation series - it's based on obsolete scientific thinking about predictability. The concept of 'engineers of history' that the Foundation series is based on - i.e. that these white-robed geniuses could steer the course of future events, hundreds or thousands of years later, by making small key changes to the present - relies on a lack of knowledge of chaos and sensitive dependence on initial conditions (which to be fair only really came with the widespread use of computers, i.e. Lorenz 1963):

https://www.astro.puc.cl/~rparra/tools/PAPERS/lorenz1962.pdf

However, the general concept was already known:

> Poincaré, 1903: “A very small cause which escapes our notice determines a considerable effect that we cannot fail to see, and then we say that the effect is due to chance. If we knew exactly the laws of nature and the situation of the universe at the initial moment, we could predict exactly the situation of that same universe at a succeeding moment. But even if it were the case that the natural laws had no longer any secret for us, we could still only know the initial situation approximately. If that enabled us to predict the succeeding situation with the same approximation, that is all we require, and we should say that the phenomenon had been predicted, that it is governed by laws. But it is not always so; it may happen that small differences in the initial conditions produce very great ones in the final phenomena. A small error in the former will produce an enormous error in the latter. Prediction becomes impossible, and we have the fortuitous phenomenon.”

Thus 'Seldon's equations of psychohistory' would almost certainly be subject to sensitive dependence on initial conditions, and would be no more useful than algorithms claiming to predict future financial market behavior, or the specific weather at a certain location on a year from now.

It's not really Asimov's fault - this was also an era when people believed they could learn how to steer hurricanes with minor energy inputs, another topic where chaos demonstrated why that would be impossible to do with any confidence.

However, it's also kind of hilarious that Seldon failed to predict fundamental changes in society (like women in leading academic or political positions), Asimov's vision is basically 1950s society projected into the future. I suppose some people have wistful longings for that era, but not me.

Re: When “Foundation” Gets the Blockbuster Treatment, Asimov’s Vision Gets Lost

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how completely boring it would be to be faithful to it What movies have you seen that have been faithful to the literary work but still were great movies? I'm struggling to come up with one.

Lord of the Rings by popular consensus, surely?

How could I forget about LOTR! Admittedly Ive not seen any of the Harry Potter movies.

Re: When “Foundation” Gets the Blockbuster Treatment, Asimov’s Vision Gets Lost

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lord of the Rings by popular consensus, surely?

LOTR and Harry Potter are easy to translate to the big screen because both follow the Hero's Journey formula. The same can be said with Dune. The only difficulty with Dune is that all of its content is hard to fit in two hour snippets.

I thought the same about Dune. It's one of my favorite books, but there's a lot of detail in there that didn't make it to the movie.

Re: When “Foundation” Gets the Blockbuster Treatment, Asimov’s Vision Gets Lost

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. It took me a while to get my head around the approach they were taking (I re-read the whole series prior to it airing) but what struck me most on re-reading was how completely boring it would be to be faithful to it. Even just getting rid of the 1950s stereotype gender roles - which is the obvious place to start - doesn’t change the long arcs of obvious dialogue. It’s a really grand scope for a univ…

>what struck me most on re-reading was how completely boring it would be to be faithful to it Agreed. The inspiration behind the Foundation series, setting out to shorten the Dark Ages after the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, is great. However, if you try reading those short stories again today, you're quickly reminded that early in his career, Asimov was already great at world building, but terrible with char…

> setting out to shorten the Dark Ages after the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, is great.

If you haven’t already, I recommend reading “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

Re: When “Foundation” Gets the Blockbuster Treatment, Asimov’s Vision Gets Lost

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, my son made a point about the "unfilmable" books, which are a lot of dialogue: aren't most cop and lawyer shows mostly a lot of talk, usually in just a few common settings? Nah, consisting mostly of dialogue doesn't make something unfilmable. That description applies to tons of good movies. "Unfilmable" becomes a possibility when there's little way to show anything, other than having characters speak infodump…

Not sure what we're disagreeing about -- shows like Suits and Billions are very much two people talking, one of those people talking to someone else, first two people talking again, expand... Mandalorian has shown how little of a set is required to keep actors busy.

Ah, I misread that your son had claimed dialog-heavy things might be unfilmable and that you'd disagreed based on all the successful dialog-heavy filmed media the exists. The "nah" was a result of that misunderstanding, but was still intended to agree with you, if that makes sense. Sorry about that.

Re: When “Foundation” Gets the Blockbuster Treatment, Asimov’s Vision Gets Lost

#406
post #399

The economist Paul Krugman of all people wrote a 'review' of Foundation versus Dune : > “Foundation” might seem unfilmable. It mostly involves people talking, and its narrative inverts the hero-saves-the-universe theme that burns many acres of CGI every year. The story spans centuries; in each episode everything appears to be on the brink, and it seems as if only desperate efforts by the protagonists can save the day…

Krugman has stated in the past that the entire reason he became an economist is because it was the closest real world profession to being a psychohistorian.

Amusing considering economists care more about their precious numbers than sociology, psychology and history.

Re: When “Foundation” Gets the Blockbuster Treatment, Asimov’s Vision Gets Lost

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, I never made it past Season 1 so you may be right. It was just so distracting that I couldn't force myself to continue. More and more people recommend it, though, so I may have to just suffer through those early seasons to get to the good stuff.

The Expanse is one of only five science fiction productions on TV I could seriously recommend to someone. It deals with big themes in a coherent manner. And the characters get incredible depth as the seasons continue. And thematic/political elements get way more interesting. Almost every other science fiction series turns out to be mostly fluff (admittedly, very entertaining fluff) when viewed through the lens of The…

What are the other 4?

Re: When “Foundation” Gets the Blockbuster Treatment, Asimov’s Vision Gets Lost

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Krugman is just too emotionally invested in the book, so nothing comparable to the book. If the show is not called foundation, he will probably enjoy it.

Saying Krugman is too emotionally invested in the book is an understatement. This is the man who claims to have wanted to bring about psychohistory itself as the natural evolution of economics.

He may be the only neoclassical economist to admit that, but most of them have the hubris to think it. I almost suspect Asimov intended a satire: "Humanity is complicated, but fear not! I have numbers, and those allow me to completely ignore humanity!"

Re: When “Foundation” Gets the Blockbuster Treatment, Asimov’s Vision Gets Lost

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe? I don't get the problem with Foundation. Like why can't they take the source material and create their own interpretation? What's so wrong with that? Maybe someone will go on and create a Vorkosigan Saga interpretation too? I read the books. Loved them. Really enjoying the show too.

If my memory serves me right, Foundation was never about individuals but collectives. That's what psychohistory math was about. The show fails completely to transmit this idea which for me, is the core of the books. So if they don't even get that right, what's the point of making a show about it?

It’s fun and interesting. What other reason do they need? You’re latching on to the premise that a show or movie based on a book must strictly adhere to that book or else it’s not good. It doesn’t. It can be loosely coupled or tightly coupled.

You’re disappointed because you have set expectations on what they should do. But that doesn’t mean it’s bad. I got over the “it must follow strictly” mindset a long time ago.

Re: When “Foundation” Gets the Blockbuster Treatment, Asimov’s Vision Gets Lost

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring the lack of faith to the source material: It's bad.. the dialogue, conflict, etc., are far below the levels we've come to expect in sci-fi shows like Expanse. This is a complete waste of Jared Harris' talents. In the last episode, the resolution of his incomplete download was dramatized by a bit more screaming, then he was all good. It doesn't feel elevated or sophisticated at all... it does look very pretty…

> Also, my son made a point about the "unfilmable" books, which are a lot of dialogue: aren't most cop and lawyer shows mostly a lot of talk, usually in just a few common settings? Nah, consisting mostly of dialogue doesn't make something unfilmable. That description applies to tons of good movies. "Unfilmable" becomes a possibility when there's little way to show anything, other than having characters speak infodump…

> just the physical movement and reactions of characters during the dialogue

I love how old Spike Lee films would have people talk while "walking" down a street but they wouldn't really walk, just stand there and talk as the background moves by just like the way it feels to have a good conversation while walking.

https://www.andsoitbeginsfilms.com/2013/03/breaking-down-spi...

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