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Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#401

Post by kenneth »

nl wrote: post #371
jollybean wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point about Vietnam and Philippines wavering on direct conflict is well taken but I did hint at that. I didn't say 'they would be going to war over Taiwan' - I would agree with you there there. In the geopolitical realignment, they'd be in a difficult situation, and though they might not join the Asian NATO, they'd join the new Trade Pact. Neither Sweden nor Finland nor Austria belong to NATO either, but there's…

> I don't know what you mean. 9/11 resulted in two major wars and that was a non-state actor. As I said elsewhere: In the last few years the US has been run out of Iraq by Iran, Syria by Russia and Afghanistan by the Taliban. I don't see much appetite for going back to any of those. Or more starkly: The US lost both those wars and the US population is sick of it. If China sank a couple of US ships, I'm sure the US wo…

> As I said elsewhere: In the last few years the US has been run out of Iraq by Iran, Syria by Russia and Afghanistan by the Taliban. I don't see much appetite for going back to any of those.

As was said elsewhere here, the Afghanistan war was won quickly. Afghanistan was also easily kept. And that's fighting against an opponent using guerilla tactics. What failed was nation-building. But that's not the goal with a confrontation with China. The goal is symmetric warfare to hold back an invasion. Defensive warfare is easier than offensive, so the cost would be far higher on China invading than Taiwan/US defending.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#403

Post by stickfigure »

xnyan wrote: post #200
stickfigure wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: Why not just give Taiwan nukes? MAD seems to be a very effective peace strategy. China already has nukes. Seems the essential missing ingredient is the 'M'.

Step back and just think about it in realpolitik terms. If you were the leader of china, what would you think about the idea of nuclear weapons being brought to your borders? In a similar situation (the US had nukes in turkey and other areas close to the USSR) the Soviet Union used the same rational (in part) to justify putting nukes in Cuba. Just leveling the playing field. The result was the closest we’ve ever gott…

Let me try reframing this.

If you were an abusive ex-husband, who felt that women are property and need to submit to you (and you regularly beat your girlfriends bloody to prove it), how would you feel about your former spouse buying a gun?

Sure, you'd do everything in your power to prevent that from happening.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#404

Post by ukoki »

JackeJR wrote: post #356
MangoCoffee wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its sad. when Sun Yat-sen the father of modern China take on the Qing dynasty. Hong Kong was the base. It wasn't part of China and a lot of Chinese who is educated under the British rule understand what Sun try to achieve. a modern and free country. Hong Kong have been a base for a lot of progressive Chinese. Now that Hong Kong is fully back into China and the 50 years of no changes (for Hong Kong) promised by Deng X…

Some think that if the US extended their protection to Taiwan, Beijing would not attempt to take Taiwan. Let's just assume for a moment that the US will fight off attacks by China to take Taiwan. And that US successfully ward off an attack. What next? What is there to prevent China from trying again and again and again? Will the US be prepared to ward off attacks after attacks after attacks? This is unlikely to happe…

There will be political unrest as soon as the populace realise that the easy victory they were promised is not materialising and in fact tens of thousands of sons -- only-children who represent the future, pride and prosperity of their parents -- will not be returning home.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#405

Post by AussieWog93 »

shkkmo wrote: post #395
AussieWog93 wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the most ridiculous hyperbole I have ever heard. Yes, Singapore does have strict limitations on freedom of speech, but at the same time have separation of powers, free elections and a national identity separate to the PAP.

Singapor only has "Free Elections™" where the opposition is strictly controlled and not allowed to win more than a token number of seats. See also: Nicaragua, Venezuala, etc... > That is the most ridiculous hyperbole I have ever heard. That's an ironically hyperobolic statment itself.

>Singapor only has "Free Elections™" where the opposition is strictly controlled and not allowed to win more than a token number of seats.

Through limitations on campaigning, gerrymandering and defamation suits. Not ideal, but no threats, no bullets, no bribing the electoral commission. A far cry from China where they crush entire populations with police brutality.

(In regards to my original comment, SG's elections are free in the sense that all citizens can vote without fear of backlash, but they are not fair because the PAP rig things in their favour)

>That's an ironically hyperobolic statment itself

That's the joke.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#406

Post by scbrg »

wesleywt wrote: post #393

The Chinese Communist Party does not understand the Streisand Effect.

I'm sure they do. I'm also sure they know it's fleeting. They're operating on time schedules of decades, if not centuries. The Sterisand effect is effective for weeks or possibly months, unfortunately.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#407

Post by bryanrasmussen »

howaboutnope wrote: post #394
inglor_cz wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A question out of curiosity: would you prefer DDR to be crushed militarily as well, instead of just giving up the ghost in 1989? As a fellow European, I can see that communists are somehow still considered better than the Nazis, and part of the difference might be that their gulags were never conquered by an external force and photos of their skeletal prisoners never made it to the media. They mostly dismantled them…

> would you prefer DDR to be crushed militarily as well, instead of just giving up the ghost in 1989? Why are you assuming I wouldn't have prefered the Nazis to have "given up the ghost" as well? Are there any signs of the CCP "giving up the ghost" anytime soon? Given the choices that actually existed, I prefer, as the White Rose put it in one of their leaflets, an end with terror rather than terror without end. Huma…

well you can get trace amounts of the 50g poison in your food and maybe not even get sick.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#408

Post by stickfigure »

xnyan wrote: post #247
systemvoltage wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India, North Korea, Pakistan and Russia are all bordering nations to China with nuclear weapons. During the cold war and to this day, there are no bordering states or any one close to 3000 miles of US borders with nuclear weapons. So, your comparison to US/USSR cold war to China/Taiwan scenario is slightly misplaced I think.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think you’re really giving it a good faith effort to look at this from the eyes of China. Imagine it in your head: the senior intelligence officer walks into the briefing room and says “The United States has placed their nuclear missiles in Taiwan, but don’t worry - that’s exactly the same as Russia having missiles, or India having done some nuclear tests and maybe having a shitty delive…

I don't think anyone is interested in putting US nukes in Taiwan. Presumably US nukes are already in the area on US naval vessels. It doesn't really change the balance of power; the US isn't going to start nuclear war over Taiwan.

The more meaningful scenario is what happens when Taiwan gets its own nukes. Either developed domestically or acquired shrinkwrap ("POINT THIS SIDE AT ENEMY"). At that point it's out of US control, and you can imagine the Taiwanese would use them in an existential crisis.

Of course China (specifically, the CCP) wouldn't be happy about that. That's not the point.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#409

Post by biztos »

analyst74 wrote: post #327
billiam wrote: post #228

Heartbreaking. I can't even talk about Tiananmen with Chinese -born friends under 40 in the US or Europe. TikTok and WeChat has achieved their goals of driving historical memory from their brains. And if I even mention Taiwan within seconds I am hearing the term "renegade province." It seems for now possible to create a true virtual totalitarian state in the 21st century. It's chains are forged out of "Xi thought" ap…

It's partly due Chinese brainwashing, and partly due to American brainwashing. Imagine whenever an American expat talks to a foreigner, which happens daily, someone mentions racism in US. Very soon people will get really sick and tired of hearing about it, and will emotionally deny/downplay its existence.

Long-term American expat here. I know you're only trying to make a point, but racism is almost never the first thing anyone mentions, even if they're talking about America, which usually isn't the first thing someone wants to talk about.

And when it does come up? Well yeah, racism in America is a huge problem, and I don't think expats have any problem talking about it.

Being thin-skinned about your country's complicated history is never a good look.

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